Talk:Outsider music

Psychedelic folk

I've never before heard Syd Barrett described as "Psychedelic folk", that's absolute rubbish. Most people agree that he is a pioneer of Psychedelic Rock. I never saw him on stage morris dancing or featuring an accordian in any of his sets. Can anyone justify this with some citations DarkShroom

He did pioneer psychedelic rock. Have you ever heard his solo music? Barrett or The Madcap Laughs? Although psychedelic folk isn't incredibly intuitive, I think it fits that description more than any other. What would you call Tim Buckley, particularly Starsailor? Mczuba

"Avant Folk" is a term. But Psycheddlic Folk is unarguably a genre of music. You can get into the debate over whether or not it's appropriate to call a lot of this music 'folk', but that's how it's colloquially known for better or worse. Darkshroom, listen to Syd Barret's first two solo albums. Definitely fits the definitions of both psychedelic music and what we call contemporary folk. They're very good, too! Loveoflife666 (talk) 10:39, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Outsider musicians

"Outsider musicians frequently have no formal training and/or significant compromising behavioral or psychological conditions" means that outsider musicials have no formal training and no significant compromising conditions. Does the author mean that they have no formal training but do have a compromising condition? If so, then the sentence needs to be fixed. Kingturtle 07:53 May 5, 2003 (UTC)~

Does Harry Partch really belong here? His music is strange, true, but he was a trained musician and his rejection of conventional Western tuning was a conscious decision and carefully researched. He knew what he was doing; he just happened to be doing something really weird. — Gwalla | Talk 22:02, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The problem, I think, is that people use the term "outsider music" to mean such different things. If you take it to mean "people making music in a naive, 'unaware' way" then for sure Partch does not belong (neither does, say, Tiny Tim for that matter); if you take it to mean "people making music outside of the normal musical conventions and institutions" (be they classical, popular, whatever) then Partch certainly belongs (and Tiny Tim might); while if you take it to mean "musicians who are social outisders" then Partch probably belongs (and Tim I'm not sure about). All of these definitions are used in various places by various people, I think, but none of them is the definition of what "outsider music" is, which makes the whole subject rather tricky to write about. Personally, I hate the term, and the less I have to do with the article, the better ;) Good luck--Camembert

Not sure. The term "outsider music" is just so tricky. I would like to (and maybe this is something you can help me with) find a surefire definition of the term that includes all artists labelled as such, from people like Partch who make music in strange ways to gags like Moondog to "psychological outsiders" like Barrett. Maybe even "musicians creating music outside the usual conventions" would work but that would describe Bob Dylan or Nirvana at some points in their career and I wouldn't call them outsiders. Anyway, if you would prefer to remove Partch, I would have no problem with that. - Rorschach567 | Talk 07:58, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Nirvana would count as "outsider music" not only based on "music created outside the usual conventions" but also "compromising behavioral or psychological conditions". Prairie Dog 22:08, 9 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure a surefire definition can be found. "Musicians creating music outside the usual conventions" is far too broad, as it encompasses the entire avant garde, and I don't think anybody would call Schoenberg or Penderecki "outsider music". To my mind, it's a lack of conventional competence combined with a lack of awareness of that incompetence. The problem is describing it in terms that aren't necessarily derogatory, which is hard even for people who enjoy it. — Gwalla | Talk 00:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Did Schoenberg and Penderecki have compromising psychological conditions to the same level as Kurt Cobain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.160.169.164 (talk • contribs) .

Please. First of all, Kurt Cobain didn’t “create music outside the usual conventions" in any fashion that hadn’t been done before him by other contemporary pop musicians, which is what he was. He wrote in a convention structure in a conventional way (having a unique style isn’t a qualifier here). And while wonderful at it and certainly an important contributor to popular music’s progression, you just can’t make him out to be anything more just because he was very talented and important. Second of all, you’re unfairly romanticizing his “compromising psychological conditions” to be something more than they were, which is some mental instability, drug use, clinical depression and a host of other ailments typical with many other musicians you aren’t campaigning for. All of which are just as well documented. Sorry, the man is a legend, but he isn’t The Shaggs, even if he claimed to like them (and that certainly isn’t a dig). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.146.231 (talk) 02:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest Sexton Ming be removed, he doesn't really fit the criteria in any way. 144.87.143.3 16:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Is anybody here intelligent enough to question the DEFINITION, rather than those who do or do not belong in it? The first paragraph is absolutely rediculous and could have been written by someone similar to Adolf Hitler for its downputting of minorities and people who choose to reject the mainstream, not out of ignorance, but out of the complete opposite: wisdom. and there is nothing whatsoever that implies people not in the mainstream are any worse than the mainstream-infact, in my 14 year long experience of composition, it is VERY much the opposite. keep it simple. outsider music is just that: non-mainstream. The term is not formal, and probably doesnt warrant an encyclopedic definition. so. In wikipedian, "This article needs a cleanup". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.81.209 (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

ps. Kurt Cobain wasn't in the least bit experimental. He was the very definition of mainstream. How anybody can call one of the seven most commercial bands in history "outsiders" blows my mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.81.209 (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Brian Wilson's on the list - would you deny that The Beach Boys were one of the seven largest selling and most famous rock acts of all time? Admittedly Brian did do work with the Beach Boys that would be considered "experimental" and did have compromising mental conditions.71.106.212.95 (talk) 06:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think any definition of "outsider" which includes mainstream (albeit unique) performers like Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys or Kurt Cobain of Nirvana is deeply flawed to the point of being meaningless. Even Syd Barrett doesn't really belong: he founded Pink Floyd, one of the biggest-selling bands of all time. His personal eccentricities aside, his music was not radically different from that of his fellow Pink Floyd members. Timothy Horrigan (talk)

Outsider 'movement'

Continuing from the discussion above, I was told - can't remember when or whom by - that the Outsider Art movement was itself a direct reaction to the autocracy of the Art Establishment; an establishment which recognised only originality within defined "schools", and whose training and mindset are anathema to true outsider art. In other words a trained artish cannot be a true artist because the training itself would have locked out a vital part of their creative faculty. In this sense, the pop movement was itself an outsider art movement. But as each genre becomes established, and books are written about "established" outsider artists, then a new door is opened for new artists to emerge. Perhaps there should be a new category of outsider music, to distinguish between outside-in and outside-out. A professional musician, who turned outsider, could then be termed "inside-out". Matt Stan 14:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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citations

this article seriously needs some citations, its a piece of shit atm 68.94.198.236 (talk) 09:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Wild man fischer

is definatly worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.114.69 (talk) 08:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

How bout

Tay Zonday, seems like a perfectly good example, and there are nyt articles to cite... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.170.113 (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, the question would be if he's prolific enough for inclusion.. Loveoflife666 (talk) 10:44, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article constantly refers to Outsider Music as "unskilled" or somehow inferior. Let's please rewrite sentences like that and keep in mind that articles on other genres generally don't mention if there happens to be some "bad" performers in that genre, style, or in this case, cultural movement. For example, the Hip Hop Music article doesn't say "Hip Hop ranges from terrible music like Eli Porter to good music like Eminem." --Iron Chef (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not comparable to hip hop. The lack of skill is one of the defining characteristics of outsider music. It's difficult to talk about it in another way, as the lack of qualities of what is traditionally considered to make "good music" is almost the whole point. Zazaban (talk) 03:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

But although there may be a technical lack of skill that, adjectives like "terrible" aren't proper to describe it - somebody may find the lack of skill to add to the charm of the music, or, as in many cases of Outsider Music, the percieved lack of skill is intentional. --Iron Chef (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that; I didn't mention the word terrible, I agree that that should go. But The OP argued against the use of the word "unskilled", which is one of the main defining characteristics of the genre. Zazaban (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I think this issue has been resolved via various edits that have taken place since the original discussion in March. I will remove the "neutrality" tag. However, I think the article is too dependent on lengthy quotes from the "Songs in the Key of Z" book, so I will leave the "needs additional citations" tag for that reason. --DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 17:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 04:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Charles Ives

Wouldn't Charles Ives fit here?--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Yung Lean

Inappropriate to include Yung Lean in this list. The citation is used out-of-context, the author more likely meant that his music has the feeling of being made by outsiders, not that it is outsider music.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.87.211 (talk • contribs) 06:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

The source says what it says. The Master ---)Vote Saxon(--- 00:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Citations and/or cleanup needed

The list of musicians needs to have citations added or be cleaned up. The Master ---)Vote Saxon(--- 03:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

what about old style

Suppose something comes out in older style. "Morse Code of Love" is an example; it is a throwback to early 1960s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.102.56.146 (talk) 20:44, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

"List of Music Considered the Worst" in 'See Also'

I don't think The Shaggs (and Farrah Abraham sometimes) being considered both outsider music and 'bad music' is enough to justify the inclusion of that page in the see also. a reader skimming through the article might get the false impression that outsider music is considered bad, which is especially untrue considering the critical acclaim towards artists like Daniel Johnston and Jandek.

Just a thought, discuss Loveoflife666 (talk) 10:33, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Mental illness and disability

The reference which justifies the use of the phrase "[outsider musicians] sometimes suffer from disabilities or mental illnesses" strikes me as dubious (I changed "usually" to "sometimes", and removed "intellectual" since the reference provides no basis at all for the claim of "usually"; or specifically "intellectual" disabilities). It's a thesis written for a DPhil in musicology: "Lo-Fi Aesthetics in Popular Music Discourse" and as such is rather more of an artistic argument than a source of statistical information on a population.

Note carefully: that thesis is not about outsider musicians, and it's about the discourse rather than the actuality of Lo-Fi aesthetics in pop music.

While "intellectual disability" has a couple of mentions in the musicological thesis referred to, "disability" without qualification is more common.

Regardless of that, the reference cites no data source to justify any claims about whether or not mental illness or disability of any sort is more or less common than average in the set of "outsider musicians". I therefore propose that the article's opening mention of mental illness and disability is best removed.

Good points, but the fact is that many so-called "outsider artists" are noted for their mental illness. I don't know if this should be noted in the second sentence, but it needs to be noted somewhere in the lead, as it is on the lead for Outsider art. Harper's thesis is about "the actuality of Lo-Fi aesthetics"—as well as "outsider" and "DIY"—it's just written from the angle that these are all subjective labels (they are), and so the analysis tries to find consistencies in the term's application through the discourse of music journalists.--Ilovetopaint (talk)

I double-checked the source and verified that the string "intellectual disability(ies)" is invoked 17 times, not the "couple" you suggested. Harper states in no unclear terms:

As a DJ for WFMU, Chusid was an influential figure in independent music during the 1980s. Intended as an equivalent of 'outsider art' (art by those outside of the artistic establishment, especially those with mental illnesses or intellectual disabilities), his category of 'outsider music' has a significant overlap with lo-fi

And on other pages:

[...] the primitive is an extreme amateur, an artist who expresses her/himself in a childlike way, who is too poor for technocracy, who is marked by mental illness or disability, or who simply has not (yet) been affected by modernity.} [...] Jandek and Johnston were accordingly subject to much of the same kinds of primitivist aestheticisation as their apparent peers, regarding extremes of distance from technocracy in their amateurishness and other socio-cultural outsider status: childlikeness, mental illness and intellectual disability.

The reason why the text "usually" appears is because there have been examples of so-called "outsider musicians" who do exist inside the "artistic establishment".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

List of notable examples

Why was the list of notable examples of outsider musicians removed? EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Brian Wilson

The example of Brian Wilson as an outsider musician should be removed as it doesn't conform to the consensus definition of the term as summarized in the article. Brian Wilson is inarguably the least "outsider" artist one could possibly cite, being a musically literate professional musician-composer who worked in the mainstream music industry for the entirety of his career. If having mental problems, occasionally dabbling in "lo-fi" recording and having a lot of bootlegs to one's name makes them an outsider then the term would be meaningless. 2600:8801:7116:4400:EDDB:7C96:15E:AA59 (talk) 00:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)