Talk:Pente

	Games portal This article is part of WikiProject Board and table games, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to board games and tabletop games. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.Board and table gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Board and table gamesTemplate:WikiProject Board and table gamesboard and table game articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Pente vs. Renju vs. Ninuki-Renju

Is it really correct to say that Pente is a "simplification of Renju"? It seems that Renju lacks the possibility of capturing opponent's stones. --AxelBoldt

The article doesn't say that Pente is a simplification of renju. Ninuki-renju isn't renju. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 3

What is the difference between pente and ninuki-renju? Shouldn't we have an article on ninuki-renju or renju? -- SJK

The difference between Pente and ninuki-renju is explained in one of the external web-pages linked in the article. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 4

Which one, and why couldn't it also be clarified in the Wikipedia text? Surely a one-sentence mention of the actual difference wouldn't be too much to ask for... JC 09:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. There's really only one that talks about it. I think Ninuki-renju should have its own section here, to talk a bit more about it... I am not much of an expert, though, and I wouldn't necessarily trust just one source (as it seems there are various Pente rules to begin with, considering differences of how to begin play and so on). Anyone have enough experience with Ninuki-renji to discuss it? If not, I might just have to do some research myself and spend some time actually working on it :) JC 09:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While you're at it, you mind as well check up the differences between Gomoku and Connect6 along with those named above and edit respective articles. 70.111.251.203 21:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It appears just by looking at the articles that there's a huge difference between the two. Gomoku is like Pente, only without capturing, it seems... Connect6 has each player making two moves each turn (they get to play two stones for their turn) except for Black's first turn (where they only get one), and the goal is to get six in a row instead of only five... -JC 14:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another name

"The community has apparently not found a generic term that applies only to games with these rules."

Pente does have another name: Quinta. This name was used by a shareware implementation (probably one of many) many years ago, but I don't know the status of the name. -- Smjg 19:56, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hang on ... just looked at the external link. So white places one, black places two, then they place one per turn? That's not the same as Quinta, which is straight one per turn from the start and no restrictions on where stones are placed (except obviously, must be on an empty point). Otherwise it's the same, except that the version I played was red and green, and the computer would always take the centre before a random point if it knows no better move.... -- Smjg 11:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

More than two players

The version I've always played had anywhere from the traditional two players to five or six, using various colored glass pieces... Is that a niche version, or does the current article just leave it out? Cursed Pretzel

I play that version too! normally 3 or 4 player and its much harder that way, the version i play is to capture you must bracket 2 stones of the same colour with 2 of your own often this game ends with 5 captures rather than a pente Dasy2k1 —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Game must have been from 1977 or before.

I have a Pente game that has the copywrite.... Gabrel 1977 @ Pente Games Co. I don't remember when I got it but it must have been from around that time in Tulsa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mcsoares (talk • contribs) 03:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I would like to add the following :

You have a Pente game that's copywrited in 1977 ,and I remember playing Tessera on a Sega Megadrive many years ago, so the author of the article could do some research to find the games series in electronic form . By the way I happen to be Greek and Tria , Tessera , Pente is er... Greek for 3 , 4 , 5 . 193.92.154.18 00:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History

I rearranged the paragraphs of the history section into a more chronological order. I'm no expert on Pente, so feel free to work on it more. There are a couple of paragraphs that had line-breaks in them that maybe were meant to be paragraph breaks, though I assumed not. Also, it seems there are some gaps and missing dates in the history. -- Logotu (talk) 21:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR

Much of this article is subject to deletion due to violations of WP:OR and WP:V, to say nothing of ~~WP:V~~ WP:N.

You did say WP:V. Twice. :D --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I love Pente as much as the next guy, and only wish my kids didn't have computers so they'd still play it with me. But all these personalized versions that have been added to this article simply don't belong here, for the aforementioned reasons. I'll wait a while for others to comment before returning with my chain saw. Un school 02:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You could chop, or you could check the External links section to see if any of them mention the rules you have concerns about. If there are, any that need citations, use {{citation needed|date=Month YEAR}} instead. We can't read your mind. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have looked at the external sources, and with respect, I don't think a single one appears to meet WP:RS.Un school 05:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recently rewrote the article to tone down the original research and other non-encyclopedic content. If it's still a problem, just consider merging any useful info into Go_variants and having both Pente and Megiddo redirect there. Alternatively, you could try to improve the article yourself instead of just pointing out its flaws. 98.86.118.253 (talk) 00:54, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pente: Invented by Stillwater, OK man

I have been playing on a very old pente set. It was being played at Hideaway Pizza in Stillwater, OK ever since I can recall. It is rumored to have been invented there. Can someone check this? I find it unusual that it isn't mentioned here, since it is mentioned in the instructions, itself. And yes, Pente can and is still played by more than 2. 75.108.46.195 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

his linkedin shows he was an original franchiser of hideaway pizza. gary gabrel is his name 216.80.48.30 (talk) 06:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pente Today?

The history, rules, and overview of the game are the only sections in the article. I am wondering; when Hasboro sold the rites of the game, was that the last of it? Is pente still played today? Lstockton (talk) 06:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Winning Moves Games currently publishes a version of Pente that you can buy on Amazon. Pente.org and vint.ee offer online live and turnbased play.

The US Pente organization is now defunct, but I believe there are currently talks of Pente being added to the mind sports olympiad line-up.

If/when this happens it should definitely be added and sourced. T0afer (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

External links

I noticed that there was a game play link in the references. I removed that and added an exterior links section so the to external links were separated from the references. Shieldsy7 (talk · contribs) who has been adding yet another game play site has accused me of having an "alterior motive" (I think "ulterior was meant) for removing them. WP:EL is clear. Specifically neither WP:ELYES nor WP:ELMAYBE say anything about this sort of link. WP:ELNO 13, sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject seems to apply. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:EL has clear guidelines about rich media, which I would believe applies to readily accessible, browser friendly websites which let the user directly experience what the article is about. This is commonly seen on articles about music, movies, speeches, and more. Additionally, the existing links seemed to have registration and funding requirements, so I replaced it with an open source alternative. I have sent these details to Walter as well in my edits and through messages, but the user seems inflexible and intent on making other users look bad instead of allowing wikipedia users to experience content directly related to the article without barrier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shieldsy7 (talk • contribs) 04:03, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Videos of singles are usually included in the infobox, but only when they are official videos, not user-generated. They are often removed from EL sections, but some may exist. I do not know of links to music aside from that other than official websites for albums. I have not seen links to films at all. A written copy of a speech is often included for historical reasons, and I'm sure you can see how a speech is different than a game. Whether such links appear on other articles about music, film, etc. is not the point. Whether there's information that a reader can glean from visiting the link. It seems the only thing a reader can do is play a game. Now that I have read what you wrote, as a game you also may have a conflict of interest in publishing a link to this game play site. Are you a developer of that site? Are you trying to increase your SEO score by adding it here? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:24, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rich media Shortcut

   WP:RICHMEDIA

It is acceptable to link to pages rendered in normal HTML or plain text, but this is not always the case with pages using rich media formats (which may be incompatible with many users' settings and browsers). Check that the content type of the linked page is text/html, text/plain, or application/xhtml+xml (or another XHTML content type) as some pages may instead be rendered solely by platform-dependent plugins. Try to avoid directly linking to any content that requires special software, or an add-on to a browser. It is always preferred to link to a page rendered in normal HTML that contains embedded links to the rich media.

Where a link to rich media is deemed appropriate, either as a direct link or embedded within an HTML page, an explicit indication of the technology needed to access the relevant content must be given, as in the following examples:

   "Jimmy Wales: The birth of Wikipedia" July 2005 on TED; 20:01 minutes. (HTML5).
   Berkowitz, Joel, "Avrom Goldfaden and the Modern Yiddish Theater: The Bard of Old Constantine" (PDF), Pakn Treger, no. 44, Winter 2004, 10–19.

Note that MediaWiki software will provide small icons for several types of outgoing links, such as the PDF example above but text that makes it explicit is still helpful for the reader.

If an external link is to a page that automatically plays music or other sounds when visited, please add the template ( Page will play audio when loaded)

as a courtesy, according to the principle of least surprise.

---

Hey Walter - please see the above bolded sections in support of my claim. Under the reasoning of gameplay should not be linked to sites, I feel like it's only reasonable to compare to other art forms: Under that reasoning, you should not be allowed to link an article to a wiki that contain the article contents - which removes all music linked on wikipedia, any links to trailers or speeches, etc.

I am pushing hard as a game developer - your opinion, if it is that of wikipedia, seems to disqualify gameplay as a relevant piece of information in the artform of games.

I only pushed my comment because you seemed to keep one link that broke the policies of wikipedia to a much higher extent. I added the new link as it is more friendly to more browsers and does not require personal information to be shared.

Shieldsy7 (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Shieldsy7: You've missed an important thing though, sites that use rich media are permitted, only if they add information that cannot be contained in the article. That's not the case with a site that is only for game play. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:06, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also removed the other gameplay link. I had never noticed that it was only game play. The URL was a bit deceptive. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:07, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to think I don't want rich media or multimedia pages in EL, but if you read what I wrote above, and in your reverts, and other comments, you'll see that I am concerned with the utter lack of information from the links. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:09, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me! I'm honestly just trying to get some information, I'm a bit of a noobie. Could you tell me why immensely popular board games (including the game which pente was based off of) all have direct gameplay references under their articles, especially to sites that don't require registration? Check these articles out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draughts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shieldsy7 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're new to Wikipedia. You can link to an article like this: Go (game). I removed the links there and on the checkers article. Thanks for helping to weed this out. Please point to more. Oh, and sign your talk page comments with ~~~~ Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:27, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Your poor formatting meant I didn't see the link to the chess article, but it has no game play links in the EL section. There are six links in all: DMOZ, two international organizations, two news links and a history page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:29, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, seems like I looked at the preponderance of the site "curly" across board games, which seems to lead to a discussion board and provide links to a bunch of playable games. That being said, I still don't agree with your claim that gameplay is not relevant to external links. Is there a way I can make an appeal to an administrator? I think there is quite a body of evidence suggesting that free, accessible links to the content described in a wikipedia article is probably beneficial to wikipedia users, especially when those links are open sourced.Shieldsy7 (talk) 04:55, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DMOZ, now known as Curly, is a web directory and are permitted, although at the EL discussions, we have debated removing them as well because the content can vary from excellent to less than helpful. If you want to appeal to a larger audience, go to the talk page on the EL project page and ask there. Be sure to explain your relationship to the game—if any—when you comment. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:59, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shieldsy7, you can join the discussion at Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard (scroll to the end of the page to find the correct section). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing: I did not see anything at ELN. Did you mean Wikipedia talk:External links#Game article and game play external links ? Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry, yes. I apologize for confusing everyone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:19, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pente board size

"...1931 he proposed the change from Go-board with 19x19 intersections to Renju-board with only 15x15 intersections."

https://renju.se/rif/r1rulhis.htm

The board size of Gomoku and Renju was changed in 1931 from the 19x19 Goban to the current 15x15 gomoku size. Omok is a variant that currently uses the 19x19 size still. By the time Gary Gabrel heard of Ninuki-Renju in the 70's, gomoku and renju were already being played on the 15x15 board size. He borrowed the Goban and simplified the Ninuki-Renju first player restrictions to create Pente.

The current standard for gomoku remains the 15x15 board, while Omok, as stated above, uses the older 19x19 board and is closer to kakugo/freestyle gomoku from around 700 AD.

https://www.renju.net/study/rules.php

http://gomokuworld.com/gomoku/1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by T0afer (talk • contribs) 14:38, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are any of these reliable sources? They do not seem like it? Where are the authors of each article? Where is the editorial board for the sites? Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm think renju rules one is at least, but I'm not sure it matters too much. I didn't cite these for the sake of this article, just to explain why I removed the further explanation needed recently. Its easily verifiable that gomoku is officially played on a 15x15 size board. I mean technically yes, you can play it on any sized grid and even an infinite plane, but as a game gomoku is currently played on a 15x15 board, even if it has been played on the 19x19 board in the past, and probably still is in casual settings where people only have a goban. I removed it because the implication was that Gomoku was played on a 19x19 board so universally that it needed clarification, as to why Pente's 19x19 sized board was a change to the Gomoku as its commonly played today.

As for reliability, the second link is a rules explanation posted by the renju international federation website. Under the authority of the relevant commissions.

https://www.renju.net/media/games.php?gameid=14071

And Here are databases kept by the international renju federation for gomoku tournaments. gomoku world has many of these games as well in their database as well. You can see the use of 15x15 board sizes

https://www.renju.net/organizations/rif.php

Information on the Renju International Federation and specifically the Gomoku committee can be found here.

http://gomoku.5v.pl/index.php/zasady-gomoku

The polish gomoku association lists the board size here on their webpage as 15x15

https://www.amazon.com/15x15%EF%BC%8CClassic-2-Player-Adults%EF%BC%8CIdeal-Entertainment-Strategy/dp/B08Z3SK2HB/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=gomoku&qid=1627505157&sr=8-5

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Gobang-Gomoku-Puzzle-Entertainment/dp/B0157ZACBE/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=gomoku&qid=1627505243&sr=8-6

Here are gomoku sets for sale on amazon. They are 15x15 sizes.

And finally, The very first link, which is misleading yes, is posted on luffarschak.org which is the official homepage of the Swedish Renju/Gomoku Federation a member of the RIF

https://luffarschack.org

Delete the direct after .se in renju.se and you'll see it redirects to the main website page.

https://luffarschack.org/kategorier/18-blandat/30-historia

Here is where the article can be found

Beyond that if you take a cursory look at gomoku apps on apple's game store, and around on the internet, you see many instances of gomoku programs all having the game played on 15x15 size boards. This is the most common size of the board, and is universal in tournament play. T0afer (talk) 21:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]