Talk:Teen pop

For those interested in expanding this article..

Some useful sources...

• Rollingstone article on teen pop
• Guardian.uk article on teen pop history
• Reflections on the Meanings of Contemporary Teen Pop Music--SilverOrion (talk) 06:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Carly Rae Jepson - Call Me Maybe

Should somebody add it? 92.78.150.87 (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Alt-pop in regards to Teen Pop

my comment when I added the bit about alt pop here...

"if you google alt-pop online it still takes you to the indie pop page, but indie fans have deleted all mention of alt-pop as it includes lots of acts that have more in common with teen pop - therefore the information (last updated by Aoksjd on the 24 May 2021)‎ all the indie fans didn't want has been has been moved here".

User:Aoksjd brought it back to the Indie pop page on that date but it was deleted because it contained some orginal research. however something needs to be said about alt-pop somewhere on here because someone else might do the following:

1) Have a look at the Official Charts website

2) look at the latest news at https://www.officialcharts.com/news/latest-news/ because I like to keep up with what's going on in the charts (as there's more to music than just 80s acts at https://www.classicpopmag.com or old rockers at https://www.uncut.co.uk

3) decide to have a look at the 29 June 2021 One To Watch feature(https://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/one-to-watch-beren-olivia-is-an-alt-pop-superstar-in-the-making__33478/2) which is entitled "Beren Olivia is an alt-pop superstar in the making" with the sub-heading "Fans of Tate McRae and Halsey will love this songwriter on the precipice of stardom".

4) think what is this alt-pop thing that all these websites are going on about

5) think oh yes I'll google it

6) and do you know what happens when you google alt-pop, alt pop or alternative pop? yes that's right the indie pop page at wiki comes highlighted at the top (please see notes below)

7) Think oh yes Wikipedia! The largest and most-read reference work in history, one which is consistently one of the 15 most popular websites as ranked by Alexa.

8) Going to wiki to find the information required and reading the indie pop page

9) realising the information is not there so Wikipedia must be a bit shit and useless and totally overrated...i.e. its not as good as all the reference books you used to get in Waterstones, The County Book Store, Dillions, The Works or Fopp....(mostly books by Colin Larkin published by Guinness or Virgin Books)

10) looking at the Talk:Indie pop page and noticing that a discussion about alt-pop has taken place, but it looks like the indie fans were not happy with all the pop acts appearing. same with alt-pop in regards to Alternative rock, as there is no mention of pop stars like Billie Eilish, Halsey and Tate McRae over there even though this is where searches are taking people.

11) look at the Revision history for Alternative rock: and indie pop, and find something (by User:Aoksjd) that refers to alt-pop

12) As the indie fans are not happy and seeing as all these alt-pop girls seem to be teen pop stars (as in pop stars in the chart who are teenagers/young woman not pop music aimed at teenyboppers, as that kind of traditional teen music is probably more a gay pop/queer pop thing now or stuff like Westlife that you get for your mum at Christmas) cut and paste the info from indie pop revision history and stick it under the teen pop section where it might be extended on, added to and more appreciated by pop fans.

13) add Halsey

examples of alt-pop stars...

A) Billie Eilish born 18 December 2001 (therefore aged 19 years) with 1 UK Number 1s / 7 UK Top 10s / 11 UK Top 40s / 15 UK Top 75s (on wiki they get around the alt pop thing by listing her as a singer/songwriter but songs like "Everything I Wanted" (stylized in all lowercase) is listed as alternative pop, which redirects to Indie pop)

B) Halsey born 29 September 1994 (now aged 26, but had her first USA chart entry as a teenager) with 2 UK Number 1s / 3 UK Top 10s / 11 UK Top 40s / 13 UK Top 75s and listed under a few genres on wiki including alternative pop which redirects to Alternative rock in this case

C) Tate McRae, born July 1, 2003 (age 17) with 1 UK Top 10s / 1 UK Top 40s / 2 UK Top 75s and listed under the alt-pop genre on wiki which redirects to which redirects to Alternative rock in this case

all with a top ten hit - therefore must be popular with record buyers who have heard the record on the radio, saw the track on TV or people online streaming the song. However, none of them appear in the articles about Teen pop, Indie pop, Alternative rock or Lo-fi music (bedroom pop)..which is strange in the case of Billie Eilish (isn't she one of the breakout stars of the last few years?) and Halsey...shouldn't they be mentioned somewhere in one or more of these articles?

If alt-pop is not going to get an article of its own it has to be put somewhere, as so many sites are using it, even though its quite a new term (it seems it was added to the indie pop page on 10 October 2020‎ by ABigBeast05‎) its even got an entry at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alternative%20pop

"alternative pop (noun)

Definition of alternative pop

pop music that has broad appeal but that is produced by performers who are outside the musical mainstream and that is typically regarded as more original, eclectic, or musically or intellectually challenging than most pop music

— called also alt-pop

Examples of alternative pop in a Sentence

Recent Examples on the Web

The British alternative pop-rock outfit has now earned 16.1 billion streams. — Hugh Mcintyre, Forbes, 27 May 2021

The alternative pop icon confirmed the news with a tweet. — Lars Brandle, Billboard, 16 Dec. 2020

now if you look at the 'Is Merriam-Webster a credible source?' question you get:

"Merriam-Webster is a wonderful and reliable source for information. The Spelling Bee Hive -- a section about the National Spelling Bee -- the age-appropriate games, the vocabulary quizzes, and the Word of the Day will be of particular interest to kids" from commonsense media

now Wikipedia:Dictionaries as sources states that 'Dictionaries that are secondary for Wikipedia but primary among linguists' but if every other website is using the term and if the dictionary has picked up on its popularity, it must be a trend?

please read the following discussion from the Alternative rock talk page...

Alternative pop discussion

"Does Alternative pop warrant it’s own page? It is obviously not a direct synonym with alternative rock. Dekai Averett (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Dekai -

I suppose it could, looking at it as a subset, so to speak, of the Alt scene, but Alt-Pop was a logical path for the music to follow so I don't consider "Alt-Pop" to be a separate genre of the entire alternative music scene. There were SO MANY subsets of the entire scene that, if one were to "tease" them all apart into their separate contributions well, you'd go nuts trying to separate all of it!

I WAS in the middle of re-writing portions of the "Alternative Rock" Wiki page because it gives the reader the impression that Alt-ROCK came first when it was quite the opposite. Electronic/synthesizer-heavy bands were the first bands with "The Velvet Underground" considered by many to have been the first Alternative band. However, two bands, "Neu!" (ca.1975)(ca.1970) and "CAN" were among the first to begin experimenting with heavy synthesizer use, repetitive drums, and two "CAN" tracks in particular, Vitamin C [4] and "Mother Sky" [5]" are obviously very important links in the history of alternative music that would soon follow in the 1980s. Here's a tune by "Neu!" - [6].

Prior to "CAN" & "Neu!" was "The Velvet Underground", a band, of sorts (more of an experimental music effort) formed in 1967 by Lou Reed (who went on to be one of the greatest alternative music artists), John Cale, guitarist Sterling Morrison, and drummer Angus MacLise. The Underground sprang from the famous,, "bohemian"/ avant-garde art-house of Andy Warhol, and he briefly managed the band. The band saw little commercial success at the time but now The Underground is considered to be one of the most influential bands in rock, underground, experimental, and alternative music. And THAT sentence sums up my point perfectly - the roots of alternative music run DEEP and we had multiple terms for the musical genera. Alternative, Punk, New Wave, underground, experimental (Depeche Mode's early albums contain loads of experimental material). We were raving, most likely, before you were even born and Extacy was a LEGAL drug, for a time. We dressed to thrill, kill, and looked beautiful every time we went clubbing. When rap became increasingly popular, I kNEW that it was over and was so saddened to see it all end because we had the BESt times, the best clubs, drugs, clothes, and FUN!

We'd have MUCH less violence in the world today if this generation of Millenials would just go out clubbing and stop being so damn serious.

Oh, I was in my early 20's back then; now I'm 57 and STILL listening to albums from the '80s!

and now from the indie pop page...

Alternative pop discussion

Why are "alternative pop" and "alt pop" redirects to this page. Whenever I see either term (and as I've exemplified in pages for albums like Spiders and The Beta Band), it is used to describe a very different style(s) of music than indie pop. - TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 01:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

"Alternative pop" is a term that has no currency. The only source I've ever found that attempts to define it is AllMusic, which calls it "essentially a catch-all term for post-punk bands from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s." The closest thing to that is indie pop. Other people might think of "alt-pop" as a synonym for art pop, experimental pop, avant-pop, progressive pop, and so on.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 04:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here are a couple of other appearances of these terms: Merriam-Webster.com has an entry for "alternative pop," defining it as "pop music that has broad appeal but that is produced by performers who are outside the musical mainstream and that is typically regarded as more original, eclectic, or musically or intellectually challenging than most pop music...called also alt-pop." Last.fm has a category for "alternative pop" whose "top artists" include Björk, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Fiona Apple, Garbage, and the Cardigans. I suppose those two conceptions are compatible with each other; and if the "indie" in "indie-pop" is to be taken at all literally, I guess a major-label artist who made non-mainstream pop might be "alternative" but not "indie" (as with "alternative rock" vs. "indie rock"?). Jcejhay (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I've since changed my opinion and think that Alternative pop should remain a redirect to Alternative rock. Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The term 'Alt pop' is being used quite a lot on blogs/websites these days...sometimes with 'Alt Pop' being interchangeable with 'Bedroom pop' (though the latter just redirects to Lo-Fi Music at the moment)...it really needs its own article as Alt pop is moving in a direction that has nowt to do with indiepop (less indie more 'Alternative Teen pop', especially with a lot of people using indie as shorthand for 'with guitars'). Until then I have added the following...

"Where once the term 'Alt pop' was interchangeable with that of 'Indiepop' (with 'Alternative' being the preferred American term for non-mainstream acts, and 'Indie' being favoured more in the United Kingdom), in the 21st Century the the term started to be used less in conjunction with twee, jangly guitar acts who would be found in the indie charts and more with pop artists like Tate McRae and Billie Eilish. These 21st Century pop stars would be seen as more eclectic and more original than the usual chart pop stars (with the definition of chart pop in this instance being the 'more cheesy' or 'purer' form of pop music usually targeted at teenagers), having more in common with Art pop and Lo-fi music than Stock Aitken Waterman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk) 13:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

P.S. even though I am in an area dealing with Alternative music and have referred to 'Cheesy pop', I am not using Cheesy pop as a snide negative. I actually like a lot of S/A/W's tunes and watched them on Sky Arts the other day.

These are interesting insights. I'm sure I'm not the first to feel that it's hard to know what to do about these terminology/subgenre issues, when there's so much overlap and ambiguity, and meanings can arise and shift so quickly, and there are so very many artists out there (and yet there's not always necessarily a consensus as to what subgenre best describes even one particular artist). It almost seems like the whole topic should be relegated to disambiguation pages! You know, like "'Alternative pop' or 'alt pop' can mean this or this or this or this or sometimes this, and that's all we're going to say." (:v> Jcejhay (talk) 14:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the problem arose from differences between language terminology UK and US. In Britain we have generally put the emphasis on the 'Indie' part, so that 'Indie' is the genre (now regardless of being independently distributed or not) with the sub-genres being Indie Rock, Indie Pop (typeset a lot of the time as indiepop probably because if the word pop is too 'visible' or given 'equal status' it might be seen as 'chart pop' and therefore inferior) and Indie Dance (usually from that time in the 1990s when indie bands went dance after the Second Summer of Love). In American terms it looks like the emphasis is being put on the second word, so that Alternative Rock, Alternative Pop and Alternative Dance are sub-genres of Rock, Pop and Dance, with each featuring artists operating outside the mainstream (or at least deemed less 'MOR'/'chart friendly'/'Radio 2' etc)...with Alternative Dance being used for all those dance music acts like The Prodigy and The Chemical Brothers acceptable for a play down at '50p a pint night' (i.e indie/student nights in various University towns back in the day). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.230 (talk) 12:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC) "

"Where once the term 'Alt"alt pop'" was interchangeable with that of 'Indiepop'"indie pop" (with 'Alternative'"alternative" being the preferred American term for non-mainstream acts, and 'Indie'"indie" being favoured more in the United Kingdom), in the 21st Century the term started to be used less in conjunction with twee, jangly guitar acts who would be found in the indie charts and more with pop artists like Tate McRae and Billie Eilish. These 21st Century pop stars would be seen as more eclectic and more original than the usual chart pop stars (with the definition of chart pop in this instance being the 'more cheesy' or 'purer' form of pop music usually targeted at teenagers), having more in common with Art pop and Lo-fi music than Stock Aitken Waterman."

Notes:

1) even though indie pop on Wikipedia (i.e. Indie pop a Musical genre: Indie pop is a music genre and subculture that combines guitar pop with DIY ethic in opposition to the style and tone of mainstream pop music. It originated from British post-punk in the late 1970s and subsequently generated a thriving fanzine, label, and club and gig circuit) come up highlighted on three searches, two have the top like to a spotify playlist with girl in red (Indie pop/lo-fi/bedroom pop/indie rock/dream pop/alternative on wiki with alt-pop referred to at https://hitsdailydouble.com/the_bside&id=325984&title=girl-in-red-(AWAL), https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/culture/girl-in-red-bedroom-pops-bonafide-breakout-artist-is-back/ and https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/9560223/girl-in-red-debut-album-interview/) and Chloe Moriondo (Indie pop/indie rock/kbedroom pop on wiki, alt pop at the NME see https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-radar/chloe-moriondo-pop-punk-hero-interview-2914816 or https://www.nme.com/reviews/album/chloe-moriondo-blood-bunny-review-radar-2934902)

2) however by putting alternative pop into google as well as the indie pop section at wiki, you get the definition from Allmusic: "Alternative Pop/Rock is essentially a catch-all term for post-punk bands from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s. Though there is a variety of musical styles within Alternative Rock, they are all tied together since they existed outside of the mainstream" with the questions

2.1) What makes a song Alternative Pop?

"Alternative music (or alternative rock) distinguished itself from pop by having distorted melodies, lyrical content that was more edgy or subversive, and generally appealed to a smaller audience of people who thought of themselves as outcasts".

2.2) Is alternative pop a thing?

"Alternative pop is aimed towards alternative music listeners who want a different kind of sound than the mainstream".

2.3)Is Billie Eilish pop or alternative?

Billie Eilish is an indie pop phenomenal singer. She has Tourettes Syndrome yet she manages to write and perform her music. She is very original and even tape records sounds to use on her recordings.

References

I am not going to read this wandering screed to try and figure out what your point is. Please state your point in 100 words or less. Binksternet (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

For people who don't know what the point is, the point is whether this quite new 'alt-pop' genre that loads of people are going on about, is it something for the indie-pop, pop music or teen pop article...as even though its used of and over again in infobox genre descriptions, there is no info about it anywhere else on the site...so for example where should the following actually go?

"In the 21st Century, lots of new acts have been grouped under the 'alt pop' label with the genre being used for a range of artists in the charts seen to have a broad appeal but seen to be less manufactured and more eclectic or original. Artists include Tate McRae, Halsey Chloe Moriondo, Beren Olivia, Jack River, and Billie Eilish".

Then if that description is alright, you can decide which links are blogs, newspapers or magazines and then post alt-pop under the genre/section it fits into the most.

Madonna??

Why in the world doesn't Madonna have a solid mention in this article? She is referenced at the very bottom only. In her Wikipedia she is a Queen of Pop.

Madonna's solo debut was in 1982, her music career didn't start until her early 20s. Neither was she a teenager nor her music primarily targeted at teenagers. At best she's tangentially related to TEEN pop as an influence on the later waves. Which isn't anything special since she arguably had an influence - one way or another - on everything coming after her. She is mentioned under "Pop" same as Tolkien is under "Fantasy" and not every sub genre. --2001:4DD6:62E1:0:559E:8F82:6665:7063 (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Addition of New Subsections & References

I have noticed there is a lack of detail regarding the features of the genre. Do you think we should add a Characteristics and Background subheading where we could develop it further? Other pages discussing pop genres have a similar section, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_pop.

Also, there are some sentences that could be tweaked in the “21st century” section.

There is a photo of Robin Packalen included, but he is not mentioned at all in the article. Could I switch the photo to an artist who is more relevant? On that thought, could we add more modern artists such as Olivia Rodrigo, Taylor Swift, or One Direction?

Lastly, I would like to add a few additional academic references, would that be okay? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10304310120086830, https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/music-videos-emc, https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/grovemusic/display/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.001.0001/omo-9781561592630-e-1002258376?rskey=XjIsXe&result=1, https://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/202/300/ejofsociology/2005/01/vannini_myers.html MillieRoberts03 (talk) 13:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)