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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for multi-move as proposed. There is clearly no consensus in favour of the second part of the move; a majority of those commenting favoured leaving the number at 1,000,000,000. However, this closure does not prejudice against a further move request to determine the narrower question of whether Billion should be a disambiguation page or a redirect. I don't think there is enough evidence in the discussion below to make that determination now. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 13:20, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]


The article long and short scales goes to a great deal of trouble to demonstrate that the short scale is now used in all English speaking countries, and by the English speaking people in multilingual countries. No English speaking country or region is listed as going against this trend.

It is evident that the overwhelming usage of the English word billion is to mean 1,000,000,000.

That other languages have different words for 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000 and that some use a derivative of the Latin root of billion to mean the latter number rather than the former, should be of no relevance to English Wikipedia. We are not writing an article on it:Bilione.

The current set-up only serves to give the misleading impression of ambiguity in contemporary English usage when there really isn't any, and create confusion in the eyes of readers as to the meaning of the word billion. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to propose that until I noticed that the 106 article is at Million, but I'm certainly open to either. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 20:39, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Million should be renamed to 1,000,000 instead, it is how 1 (number), etc. are handled -- 65.94.78.70 (talk) 06:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Official, academic and media usage is what we have to go on for reliable sources, not asserted, unsourced individual beliefs. That a handful English-speaking people still think a billion is a million million is hardly a basis for keeping the status quo. Universality is not a requirement to demonstrate a wp:primary topic. The status quo gives a clearly misleading impression of current English usage. And a hatnote to refer to the archaic position in the certain countries can always be added. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, we go on common usage. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Which we assess by examining official, academic and media usage. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 23:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, we assess common usage by common usage. The clue is in the phrase. -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Blue-Haired Lawyer, actually Necrothesp is right--with very few exceptions we absolutely do title our articles by common usage, period. (Or "full stop", if you prefer.) And in said common usage, the word "billion" means 1,000,000,000. Period. Full stop. I provided sources saying that even British English now has no other word for 1,000,000,000 besides "billion". You got any sources yourself, Necrothesp? Whether 1,000,000,000 or billion ends up as the resting place of this article is up for debate, but the common meaning of the word "billion" should not be. The sources are clear. Red Slash 05:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, we have no other word for 1,000,000,000, but we do have a phrase: one thousand million. This has always been how British people have commonly said it ("milliard" has never been particularly common in British English). But if you want a source for the British usage of billion, try the Oxford English Dictionary, still considered to be the Bible of British English (and constantly updated online, so let's have no spurious claims that it's out of date). The first definition of "billion" is: "orig. and still commonly in Great Britain: A million millions. (= U.S. trillion.)". The second is: "In U.S., and increasingly in Britain: A thousand millions." Seems pretty unequivocal to me, therefore, that the traditional British definition of billion is still very current in everyday usage by British people (and through my own experience, that most British people will qualify their usage of "billion" as "British" or "American" in common speech). We all know that official usage is now the short billion (for some bizarre reason obviously best known to Harold Wilson and his government), but that doesn't invalidate common usage. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Short scale" use

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The short scale is used by English speakers in the U.S., the UK and Australia (though maybe not Wales), and by Arabic speakers. It is far from an exclusive province of English speakers, and by singling out English at this dab page, the implication is that the short scale is exclusive to English. It is not, and while Wikipedia has an English speaking audience, it is inappropriate to adopt exclusively Anglo-centric definitions of terms such as this. Not to mention that by listing only one of the major users of the short scale, the reference is affirmatively misleading. It was fine before when we did not try to single out any particular adherent to these two scales, but if we're going to do it at all, the note must include the other major user. I intend to change it to that more accurate and complete form (English plus Arabic) absent a compelling argument why it should not be. JohnInDC (talk) 16:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The reference needs to come out in any case per Wikipedia:Dab#References. JohnInDC (talk) 16:52, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Having suggested that the descriptor include Arabic in addition to English, I've thought about it some more and can't see any sensible reason not also to include other major languages that also use the short scale, e.g., Russian, Hebrew, Brazilian Portuguese. The problem though is that begins to get cumbersome; and too, if we're going to throw in a list of speakers who use the short scale, it leaves hanging the question of who uses the long scale. That omission becomes kind of hard to defend. I'm leaning back to where the description was originally, i.e. with no particular descriptor attached. It's really a pretty interesting breakdown throughout the world - who uses which scale, and when they did - and that can't really be done justice in a snippet of a sentence. Plus too the Long and short scales article is linked. I'll reiterate - there is no reason to single out English for special mention in connection with one meaning of the word "billion". Most of the readers here speak English, to be sure, but it's a non sequitur to suggest that they are therefore only interested in information about English language usage. JohnInDC (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Glad we have a conversation going on this. Wikipedia uses the short scale [2] and English dictionaries too. The common definition for billion *is* the short scale. We have to state the common definition here. There are pages here that say n billion and if you click the link you would have found out that n billion has two meanings which is wrong! If billion is in an article it *only* means the short scale. We should note this long-scale variation in other languages, but this is the English wikipedia. Bhny (talk) 11:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A problem with this page is that the name is "Billion" and not "Billion (disambiguation)". Many links and searches will be looking here for a referenced definition. I see above that there was an attempt to redirect to the short scale number which would have been better. Bhny (talk) 11:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't particularly mind stating the common definition, and I don't mind emphasizing it if it is true. I do object to a dab definition that implies that the term is somehow more the province of English speakers than of the many others who also employ the short scale, which the dab does when it describes the short scale definition as the scale used in "British and American English". I am not sure how true it is, that the short scale is "the" common definition for billion given that most of continental Europe and south America do not use it, but to the extent that it is, the qualifier you've added both underemphasizes that point as well as overemphasizes the importance of English speakers in its use. To do this right, you need a real mouthful of a sentence, plus you'd need one for long scale as well because you can't equate long scale users with those who don't use short scale, see for example, much of Asia. It's a mess, it was better when it was simpler, and so I'm changing it back to its original state. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 13:19, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Use in English Wikipedia

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In the English Wikipedia the word billion is used in the American meaning (1 000 000 000), or the British (1 000 000 000 000)? I assume in most cases it is (or even it should be because of a wiki-recommendation/rule?) the American way (since it is the majority of users and Wikipedia is an American company). Am I right? And could anyone please write this into the article (Billion)? It would be very useful, i guess. Thanks, --Jiří Janíček (talk) 23:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, the short-scale billion is used in all English speaking countries. England switched in 1974. Also Wikipedia isn't a company (haha) and tries to be international. For example the spelling used in articles is whatever the article originally starts with, be it American/British/Canadian. Bhny (talk) 23:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in all Wikipedia articles, billion follows the American usage and not the historic British one. (No, that's not because of the American origin of Wiki's founders or users; it's standard in all forms of English now. No, I do not understand why the move proposal above failed.) — LlywelynII 08:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting & move

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As the comment above points out, Blue-Haired Lawyer was precisely correct in saying

The current set-up... serves to give the misleading impression of ambiguity in contemporary English usage when there really isn't any, and create confusion in the eyes of readers as to the meaning of the word billion.

I personally feel that WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMON (for all forms of English) means that we should have the number 1 000 000 000 redirect to billion and have the first section of the article billion address the former (but now completely obsolete) British usage. I'm not sure what the cut-off is for resubmitting a failed move proposal, though.

In the meantime, we must phrase the lead (with or without citations) to clarify Wikipedia and all official English venues' use of this number. Otherwise, we are giving people the impression that pages with USE BRITISH ENGLISH tags or newspaper articles from The Economist or the Beeb are still using the long scale. If there are general policies that conflict with fixing that problem (I myself believe the earlier editor who left the commented text was just misreading our dab page policy), then this is a WP:IAR situation. — LlywelynII 09:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of the long scale billion

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I have restored a link to the long scale billion which was removed several months ago. This page serves as a disambiguation page and Billion (disambiguation) redirects here. Since this page serves to disambiguate between all articles that the title "Billion" may refer to, it should include a link to 1,000,000,000,000. If editors genuinely feel that "billion" is the primary topic for 1,000,000,000 they should start another move discussion. Betty Logan (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That link still appears - look again more carefully. But it is plain antisocial to restore a version that fails to indicate which is the normal meaning of billion and which is an antiquated one. W. P. Uzer (talk) 16:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are treating the short scale billion as the primary definition of the word, and that argument was rejected above. When there is no primary topic all articles should be given as a list. Basically the consensus in the move discussion went against you so you have gamed it by restructuring the article. Betty Logan (talk) 17:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really think 10^9 is not the primary meaning of "billion" in today's world? Do you read British newspapers? Have you ever seen billion used to mean 10^12 in real life, because I don't think I have, whereas I see it used to mean 10^9 practically every day. There isn't any serious dispute about what the primary meaning is, the argument in the move discussion was about what should redirect to what, and I agree it seems quite reasonable to keep this as a disambiguation page, but a helpful one, i.e. one that makes it clear to readers what billion nearly always means, as well as all the other things it might occasionally mean. W. P. Uzer (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the point. The move discussion found there was no consensus that the the short scale billion is the primary topic for "billion". If it is the primary topic then start another "move" discussion. Otherwise please leave this page to fulfil the function it was created to do i.e. disambiguate between topics which share a common name. Betty Logan (talk) 17:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to start a move discussion, since I don't want to move anything. I'm happy for this page to distinguish between topics, as you say, but it needs to do this slightly more intelligently than most disambiguation pages do, since people may be confused as to what the normally encountered meaning is (that being the reason for keeping this as a disambiguation page and not simply redirecting). W. P. Uzer (talk) 17:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't the job of a disambiguation page to explain the etymology of a word. Even if modern English-written publications predominantly use the short scale there are plenty of historical ones where the situation is reversed. A "billion" is not a number, it is a word and its meaning depends entirely on when, where and for what it is used. Betty Logan (talk) 17:53, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No-one said or added anything about etymology, and as I've said already, no-one removed the historical meaning - just noted that it is, basically, historical, which is what people need to know. W. P. Uzer (talk) 18:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A billion is a number. Disambiguation pages have the common definition followed by "may also refer to". I don't know why we can't do that here. And nobody was talking about an etymology. Also it is actually dangerous to give people the an obsolete value if they are depending on this for a calculation. Bhny (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000 are numbers. A "billion"—as confirmed by the move discussion above—is a word that denotes several different things not only in the English language but also on Wikipedia. This is a disambiguation page not an article, and it was fine as it was before all the tampering. As for your assertion it is dangerous to give people an obsolete value, it is equally dangerous if someone is reading an older document that uses the long-scale version and the disambiguation page gives them the impression that the short-scale version is the "correct" version. Which version is correct depends entirely on the context, when and where the term originates. A disambiguation page shouldn't be making any assumptions on behalf of the reader; it should simply make it clear that it can have two interpretations in the numerical sense that are covered on Wikipedia. We have a comprehensive article at Long and short scales to explain the distinction and this article doesn't need to do anything other than simply providing the links. Betty Logan (talk) 21:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Several people have explained, now and in previous threads and edit summaries, why "simply providing the links" is a less helpful solution in this case than providing the links together with a little added commentary about actual usage. You would seem to want to deprive readers of that knowledge or make it harder for them to find it, perhaps because you want to feel some companionship in what appears to be your own ignorance about this subject. W. P. Uzer (talk) 09:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Article

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What about having a separate article for the number (at Billion) and the rest of the entries at Billion (disambiguation)? As done recently (though originally using different titles), and reverted because it is "controversial"? It seemed to me the result was slightly preferable to the arrangement we currently have - what are the objections? (Initial version of the article here, obviously this could be expanded on.) W. P. Uzer (talk) 12:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's controversial because it's not the first time that you have attempted to repurpose the page when others have disagreed (see #Removal of the long scale billion). --Redrose64 (talk) 12:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not me guv. What is your (or anyone else's) objection to the change? W. P. Uzer (talk) 13:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the page history I see plenty of disagreement between yourself and Betty Logan (talk · contribs). --Redrose64 (talk) 13:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relevant how?? The question is whether to have an article for Billion that talks about the number (or rather, the term for a number), separate from the disambiguation page. Seems to me that having an article will be more helpful to readers, as we can explain the use(s) of the term in somewhat greater depth than would be normal for a disambiguation page. The numerical term is clearly a primary topic ahead of the corporation or the person with the surname. W. P. Uzer (talk) 13:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, our friend seems insistent that there should be a separate article (though "violating MOSDAB" is a pretty useless reason, and if there is to be a separate article, I can hardly see how it can not be the primary topic). Does anyone want to discuss this, or is it just going to be decided by edit-warring? W. P. Uzer (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Midas02 (talk · contribs) has gone against the spirit of WP:BRD at Quadrillion, Billion and Billion (number) by re-reverting instead of discussing. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:57, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I'm going to comment purely from a disambiguation point of view, which is a field in which I spend most of my edits on Wikipedia. Why was there an issue with the dab page as it was (see WP:MOSDAB, or WP:DDD for quick reference)?
  • Dab pages should not contain banners or portals. This is because they are not articles, they are not referring to a single topic (in this case, the number). They are merely a list of redirects to topics sharing the same title.
  • Dab pages should not have references (for the same reason). Any clarification provided by the reference should be included in the article being linked from the dab page.
  • Entries on dab pages should include only one blue link.
  • And in general, dab pages should not be used as a "source of information", which was an issue here because multiple articles were linking to the dab page as "a source for information on the interpretation/meaning/background of billion as a number".
Now, as I wrote in my comments, there are two ways to deal with this. Either the offending information gets stripped, leading to a very condensed list of links, as on the page which I formatted. It is fully MOSDAB compliant but you can easily see the issue here. The background/information gets lost (as excellently elaborated in the article Billion (number) by W. P. Uzer), and people will still need to link to the dab page to catch the two different meanings of the number billion. Or, alternatively, a separate article (small or large) is created, which can then benefit from all the privileges of a real article. This solution is often applied for evacuating a long list of surnames from a dab page for instance.
That's all I have to say about this. Whether the number billion is a primary topic or not is a completely different debate, but I can easily see it getting a majority vote. W. P. Uzer, I have an issue being called "my friend" though. I find it demeaning, or at least that's how I interpret it, and I would like you to take it back. --Midas02 (talk) 18:08, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it was supposed to imply a tiny degree of disrespect, as is due to one who revert-wars without attempting to explain or discuss the matter on the talk page. Anyway, since you've belatedly done that, consider it withdrawn. I tend not to care too much about "rules" that certain select groups of Wikipedians have formulated and then attempt to apply without exception (even though it is a fundamental Wikipedia policy to ignore such rules whenever we can do better without them), but I agree now that the information in this case was being cramped by the dab-page format and is better presented in a fuller article. Question remains of what to do with the other -ILLION words (I haven't really looked at them in detail). W. P. Uzer (talk) 07:53, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment My objections related to the attempts to subvert the outcome at #Requested move which rejected the primacy of the short scale billion. When a requested move fails to arrive at the conclusion that any one particular definition is the primary topic then the disambiguation page should respect that outcome. This isn't just my objection, this is an objection that was voiced by several editors at the move discussion. If any editor believes that the discussion arrived at the wrong conclusion and that the short scale billion is indeed the primary topic then the move discussion should reopened. Until then any editing on this page should recognize the fact that neither scale enjoys primacy. Betty Logan (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Current shenanigans doesn't make the short scale "primary" in the Wikipedia sense (since "billion" is not being redirected to the 1,000,000,000 page, nor is that article being renamed "billion"); the question is whether (a) there should be a dedicated article explaining the use of the term billion to denote a large number, or whether that should simply be done within the framework of a disambiguation page, and (b) (if the first option) whether that article should be the primary topic for "billion". In my view, the answer to (a) is dedicated article (though I don't feel particularly strongly about it; the explaining is also done at the various large number articles, of which there may already be too many, and MOSDAB isn't law, so we can vary its provisions slightly if it's beneficial to readers to do so); and the answer to (b) is definitely primary topic. Other views please? W. P. Uzer (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 July 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]


– Topic of the article Billion (number) is primary. At least, it is almost certainly what a reader is looking for if typing "billion". W. P. Uzer (talk) 10:45, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: the alternative suggested by Red Slash was rejected above at #Requested move. Other editors simply do not share the opinion that 1,000,000,000 is the primary topic. W. P. Uzer has put forward a pragmatic and elegant solution to a problem that has gone on for too long so let's not derail the current move request with suggestions that have already been rejected. We should put this move through as quickly as possibly because it is better than the current scenario, and if Red Slash wishes to re-submit their proposal to the community they can start a fresh move request after this one is completed. Betty Logan (talk) 03:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

1,000,000,000,000 as a billion

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Is there any credence mentioning 1,000,000,000,000 as a billion, it seems archaic and not used in British English anymore so why is it still listed at the top of the page? Zarcadia (talk) 08:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is still a meaning some people would encounter (though to be honest I don't think I've ever encountered it except in the context of people explaining what a billion used to mean). I hope that when this disambiguation page is reformatted as one with a primary topic (see above proposal) it will continue to make clear to readers that this meaning is outmoded (as far as the English language is concerned). W. P. Uzer (talk) 09:29, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply, it's obviously worth mentioning but personally I don't think it should be given so much importance. The RM looks like it's going in the right direction, there's no way the number should be disambiguated. Zarcadia (talk) 09:56, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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