Talk:Historical Jewish population

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On 31 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Historical Jewish population comparisons to Jewish population distribution. The result of the discussion was moved.

Semi-protecting an article does not make the sources any less unreliable

The sources and line I have been removing is poorly referenced, and people keep reverting the edit, instead of providing a source that is anything more than a blog. Protecting the article was in my opinion an abuse of the power of the person whom protected it, as the complaints on the source are valid.

If someone was to provide an accurate source that verifies the data, then it belongs in the article. As it stands the current source is a blog by a non historian without a citation for the figure stated. The source does not meet the guidelines for a verifiable self published source as listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources

11,206,849 vs 11,273,076

How did Jewish population page get 11,206,849 and I 11,273,076? I am pretty sure that there are no miscalculations on my page. If there is an error, it must be because I listed some city as a country, so the population was added twice, once as a country and once as a city (see). If that's the case, please post it here on the talk page instead of directly removing it from the list. Removing a country will effect the rest of tables by region and ranking. I will remove it myself if the page has such an error OneGuy 07:08, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For regions, other slight differences are caused because I have Turkey as part of Asia (Middle East), not Europe. And Siberia as part of Eastern Europe OneGuy 09:48, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Israel Census Bureau includes every Jew who has visited in the last 12 months in their "population". Most of these Jews would also be included in the Jewish populations of other states. This could account for a discrepancy of hundreds of thousands, much greater than the 67,000 discrepancy you are worried about. 24.64.165.176 04:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The anon has some history. Proof please. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 07:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Total population count in 2010 of 26 million is wrong as well. I think someone miscalculated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.60.138 (talk) 01:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern Rumelia and shifting border problems

Eastern Rumelia includes most of Jewish population of Greece, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia, as well as much of the Jewish population of Romania. I'm not sure the best way to deal with this, but I don't know if including it with Turkey is it. In any event, I think the population of Salonica should be included in the Greek population. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:27, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Drowning in data?

OneGuy, I do appreciate your work, but I wonder if this particular page is an information overload that obscures a lot of the vital data about Jewish population trends historically. For example, there were five major Jewish population trends in the 1900s, two based on persecution, three on immigration. These would be the destruction of European Jewry in the Holocaust, the 1900-1920 immigration wave from Russia and Poland, the formation of Israel, the expulsion of Sephardic Jews from Muslim countries, and the immigration wave from the FSU after the fall of the Berlin wall.

The problem with the historical comparison is that it does not really reveal any of these trends, making it difficult to understand which population shifts came from the Holocaust, immigration, or other forces. Take, for example, France, which went from 86,000 Jews to 600,000. The big population increases came from immigration in the 1910s and 20s from Russia, immigration from former French colonies in North Africa and resettlement after the Holocaust. The real story would best be revealed by showing that Jewish population shot up to 300,000 before the Holocaust, fell to 225,000 or so afterwards, and then rose quickly again in the 1950s and 60s due to new immigration. The trends are interesting, but the two end points are not very illuminating.

This does not mean that your data is bad -- I find your work to date very impressive -- merely that it might be worth thinking creatively about how to show these trends in more detail. I find Matthew White's page an interesting inspiration. [1] --Goodoldpolonius2 04:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If there is a list that has Jewish population of each country for 1920s and 1950s, I can add them to the table OneGuy 19:46, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Maybe if there was chart that showed the population it might tie things together. Thos one is nice izionist.org/eng/the-jewish-timeline/, but I liked this creationist one because it had minium and maximum http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html d[@-@]b (talk) 09:27, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Major overhaul (moves, merges, renames, and additions)

Hello Wikipedians. Based on talk discussions and merge templates, I was bold and shuffled a ton of content tonight. In summary:

I moved all historical population data (particularly from Jewish population) to Jews by country/Historical comparison and then renamed that article Historical Jewish population comparisons.
I merged all current population data from Jews by country to Jewish population.
I repurposed Jews by country to house a table that offers links to articles about current Jews in a country, the history of Jews in that country, and the "List of Jews" of that country.
I redirected Lists of Jews by country to Jews by country.
I added a "Total population" section to Jewish population.

I tried to move all the references properly, but please feel free to check things over. Several of the tables need to be converted into Wiki syntax, and I will try to get to that.

I am cross-posting this message to:

Thanks! — Reinyday, 08:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Error in 1900 vs. 2005 US data

I have changed the Jewish population of the US in 2005 from 9,225,914,682 to 5,914,682 as it seems that the additional 9.22 billion is a mistake. If the revised number is not correct, please fix. AarrowOM 12:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arithmetic fault?

The table in the section Historical Jewish population comparisons#1900 compared to 2005 gives more Jews in the US than in the world as a whole. Something has to be wrong there … -- 91.49.224.222 (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Population % change column is misleading

The figure given is the absolute difference between the % of the Jews in that country in 2005 and the % of Jews in that country in 1900. A figure that might tell you how population center have shifted, but by and large a pretty much a meaningless figure. What most people would expect in the last column, I think is the actual percentage loss (second to last column/ 1900 population). --gejyspa (talk) 06:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I think this calculation is worse than useless. Just look at Algeria: essentially there has been a 100% drop in the Jewish population there, but the "percent change" is -1.07%, because in 1900 the population of Algeria was about 1.07%. But then considering that the total population of Algeria has increased since this time by at least a factor of ten, what is this "percentage change" supposed to mean? Even if the Jewish population of Algeria had doubled there would still be a "negative" percentage change. It's sloppy calculations, because its just simple subtraction of two largely unrelated percentages. It's also arguably not appropriate for this article, as the article is about historical JEWISH populations, not comparative denominational breakdowns of selected countries between 1900 and 2005. The Jewish population of America has increased by something like 500%, but a growth of "only" 2.3 % or whatever is shown.209.235.2.8 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]

How about a graph?

How about a graph?130.56.91.67 (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Population in 1939 - Pre-Holocaust

I AM surprised that there is no section that states what the global Jewish population in 1939 was. This pre-Holocaust data is vital in understanding the catastrophe of the Jews resulting from Hitler and the Nazis during World War II. - Brad Watson, Miami 65.3.238.158 (talk) 23:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the 1942 data given qualifies as "pre-Holocaust" data, because the massive extermination of Jews by the Nazi regime only really started around 1942 (before that the Jews in German-occupied Europe were in general "only" disowned and deported). It's indeed creepy that the Jewish population has even today not surpassed its 1942 value yet, in spite of >60 years of natural population increase... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Josephus' Estimate of 1,100,000

The citation of Josephus in this article is a little misleading. Josephus records that 1,100,000 were slain in the destruction of Jerusalem and an additional 97,000 were captured, BUT he qualifies his statement by saying that these were not all residents of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was sieged at the Passover, one of the three mandatory festivals during which the population swelled tremendously. Josephus actually estimates that there were 3,000,000 Jews in and around Jerusalem during the Passover, but I do not know of a passage in which he estimates the population of full-time residents in the city. It certainly is not the 1,100,000 figure. 97.65.18.190 (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No North African or Middle East populations?

The chart is missing the Jewish populations for these countries, still sizable into the 1960s.Dogru144 (talk) 00:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Why no figures for the Ottoman empire in 1900, or for Turkey thereafter?Crawiki (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2018 (UTC) Crawiki (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where did the Jews for Holocaust come from?

The statistic shows that Germany and Austria together had together about 2,000,000 Jewish population. It is stated that the Jewish population did drop by about 6,000,000 during the holocaust. Where did the Germans take those Jews from? Something does not add up here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.51.180 (talk) 19:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@85.157.51.180: All the rest of western, central, and eastern Europe. As many as 3,000,000 from Poland alone, comprised of her own Jewish citizens as well as those who’d fled there following the rise of Nazism to the west, and pogroms to the east. Remember: The Nazi’s “final solution” set as its goal the complete eradication of Jews from all parts of Europe, not just the Anschluss nations. — Spike Toronto 10:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence of 6 million jews death

Red cross and world almanac census 1945-1949 show no decrease of jewish population, since only 500k jews lived in germany most deported to palestine and only 200k died in hard labor/prission camps across europe the 6mil figure seems unlikely — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.174.39.102 (talk) 17:02, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While the comment above is anonymous dreck, would not the article be improved if the chart in the Comparisons section showed postwar numbers for 1945 or 1946? Would this be possible? Thanks!

— Spike Toronto 10:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The table in the Comparisons section has the effect of eliminating the impact of the Holocaust by jumping from 1942 — a time before the full dialling up of the Final Solution — to 1970, after almost three decades of recovering population growth for world Jewry. Intervening data from around 1948 to 1950 needs to be added. As it stands, the chart serves the purpose of Holocaust deniers who would have us believe that the world’s population of Jews actually increased from 1933 to 1948 (see here for an example of such an argument, and here for some rebuttal). — Spike Toronto 11:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is precisely what I came here to say. I'll see if I can pull together the postwar numbers. Oakling (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorting the table

I tried to sort the table to see which countries had the most Jews. This worked intelligibly enough on most of the columns, but not on the very first column. I think you need to tell the table that the column contains numeric data (or some such). Solo Owl 21:01, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

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Unidentified source Jacobs

There are currently five places where "Jacobs" (no first name) is given as a source; the last one says "Jacobs in the Jewish Encyclopedia" but otherwise there is no identification given. Checking History, it appears that these are all referring to Joseph Jacobs in the article "Statistics" in the Jewish Encyclopedia; the first reference with citation was removed (back in 2007), but the remaining references didn't include an explicit citation. The source material is listed in the References section. I'm adding citations in for each spot where that source is referenced, but I'm inexperienced and not sure that I'm using the correct format, and would appreciate any guidance. --MGBirdsall (talk) 13:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A blog post by a non historian does not qualify as a reliable source for estimates of population

https://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm does not cite where they came up with the figure that they state, and the author of that blog post is not by any stretch a history expert. The source also is heavily biased, has no editorial oversight, and no academic significance whatsoever. Calling an edit "vandalism" for removing unsourced data is counterproductive to assuring quality of content — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.22.28.227 (talk) 18:22, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting for future readers that it seems like this edit has been successfully made now. I don't know which figure it refers to, but I don't see either the url or the author's name given there in the page's references. Oakling (talk) 01:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number Correction

Corrected a small error in this statement right above the table: "According to a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, between 2010 and 2015 "an estimated one million babies were born to Jewish mothers and roughly 600,000 Jewish died, meaning that the natural increase in the Jewish population – i.e., the number of births minus the number of deaths – was 500,000 million over this period".[8]

I'm pretty certain the "million" was added incorrectly as it makes it greater than the entire population of the human race throughout history. Removed it.Bristus (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The title of this page

Is it only me who find the title strange? Comparisons with what? What is wrong with "Historical Jewish population"? Zero^talk 00:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Non/Pre-Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe

Why aren't their numbers brought up here all the way through? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.163.32 (talk) 17:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mismatch of 6m figure for Holocaust and total Jewish population in table

Table has total Jewish populations for 1900, 1942, and 1970 as (respectively): 11.2m, 15.4m, 12.6m.

Could someone explain? This would suggest demographic loss owing to genocide of c.3m between '42 and '70. Does this mean that the pre-WW2 Jewish population was 3m higher than 1942, all to be murdered pre1942?

I've heard H deniers say this disproves H. Well, obviously it doesn't do that, although it halves the number. Please clarify.

Requested move 31 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Seems to be consensus for an alternative title, and "Historical Jewish population" appears to be the acceptable alternative for all parties. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Historical Jewish population comparisons → Jewish population distribution – WP:CONCISE, existing title makes no sense. Open to other suggestions. Longhornsg (talk) 03:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 10:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, since the "historical" part is the purpose of the page. However, you are absolutely correct that the existing title makes no sense. Higher on this page I proposed "Historical Jewish population". Zero^talk 06:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Don't love it, but not opposed as a step in the right direction. Longhornsg (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Genetic study of Ashkenazi Jews

Please include recent scientific research that shows that Ashkenazi Jewry predates the year 1350. See Current biology article "Brace et al. find that human remains recovered from a medieval well in Norwich, UK, have strong genetic affinities with modern-day Ashkenazi Jews and were likely victims of recorded antisemitic violence. The presence of Ashkenazi-associated genetic disease alleles indicates a pre-12th century population founder event." 185.182.71.36 (talk) 13:19, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why the number of entire world Jewish population in more ancient time events is not given?

Why the number of entire world Jewish population in more ancient time events such as: 1) the time of the Babylon conquest; 2) the time of Cyrus the Great decree; 3) the time of Alexander the Great conquest; 4) the time of Roman empire conquest; 5) the time of the Second Temple destruction; is not given? 2601:19B:1:7B20:101:60CF:DE20:F700 (talk) 19:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Totals?

Why are there no totals for three columns in the big table?

(Specifically: the columns headed by % 1940, No. 2020, and % 2020.)

Jewish population in "Israel"

How is there is Jewish population in Israel before 1948 it wasn't a thing then 197.48.198.98 (talk) 00:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wacky numbers

These population estimates here are absolutely bonkers beyond any reason. 8 million Jews in 100 AD, are you kidding me???? The current population is only 15-20 million worldwide, so you mean to tell me that in almost 2000 years the Jewish population made a meagre 2x whereas the world population made a 41x, going from 200 to 8115 million? Now either the Jews are the most infertile ethnicity ever, or it is absolutely inane to take the wild ancient and medieval numbers at face value. Hmm I wonder which... MrThe1And0nly (talk) 20:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]