Talk:Emir Abdelkader

Move

Good luck with the move, Mustafaa. I suspect you may be in for some strenuous opposition from the folks who don't like "foreign-looking" spellings. Leave me a message on my talk page if there is trouble and I miss it. —Sanāsi al-Grīgī a.k.a. Tkinias 18:54, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm not sure whether to prefer this or Abdelkader (the latter being the usual Algerian spelling), but Abdel Kadir is almost uniquely 1911. - Mustafaa 19:48, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do not understand why a transliteration of his name is used when he already has an official "Latin" name like all Algerians do. There is no reason to use "Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri", his official name as used in Algeria is "Abdelkader" or "El Emir Abdelkader" to be specific. TonyStarks (talk) 02:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Khaled song

I am told by a native speaker that the Khaled song is not about this Abd al-Qadir, but about Abdul Qadir el-Jilani, a medieval sufi master also known as the Rose of Baghdad, founder of the Qadiri sufi order. Jayen466 15:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Freemason Comments

As shown above, there are adequate contemporary sources, cited above, establishing Abd el-Qäder's Masonic affiliation and there are two online sources as well. It is inaccurate to say, "There is also not enough sufficient evidence proving that he actually became a freemason."

Further, the claims "it is said," and "although it seems inconsistent with his main objectives," are exceptionally subjective.

I ask that that the statement be reverted. I was unable to contact the editor who made the change.

J. J. in PA 06:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)J. J. in Phila

Life in Exile

Can the "Life in Exile" section here be edited to remove distracting redundancies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidross47 (talk • contribs) 02:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

"Al-Qadir"

Why does the article keep referring to him as "al-Qadir"? The name is "Abd al-Qadir", there's no sense in shortening it. --41.102.208.204 (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to Move

The disambiguation page Abdul Qadir lists over 100 people with the name عبد القادر in some transliteration, so this article needs to have a more distinctive name. Possibilities include

• Abd al-Qadir bin Muhieddine, which is correct but not commonly used in wikipedia or in English-language discussions generally
• Emir Abd al-Qadir, which risks confusion with towns in Algeria with that name
• Abd al-Qadir (Algerian hero)
• Abd al-Qādir al-Jazā'irī
• Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri

I'm inclined to suggest the last of these, and will make that move if nobody replies to this message. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

If Abd al-Qadir bin Muhieddine is his birth name, why not use that? FunkMonk (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not against that idea, but there's another small point which I should have mentioned before, namely the consistency of transliterations. "Muhieddine" is a French representation. A consistently French way would be perhaps Abdel Kader bin Muhieddine. To use a more "scholarly" style we could have Abd al-Qadir bin Muhy ad-Din. But a mixture of the two styles would be ugly. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 14:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I should also have mentioned that the most commonly used transliterationof it sould be used. If the one I mentioned isn't, then another one is better. FunkMonk (talk) 14:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

But the "commonly used" criterion, which is indeed wikipedia policy, works against the bin Muhieddine form altogether, since it definitely isn't commonly used, whereas the al-Jaza'iri form is, at least to some extent. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 10:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Abdelkader El Djezairi. Consesus was there to move, the target name was problematic. I believe that this title was the one with the best consensus. If not, fell free to move it to one of the other options. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri → El Emir Abdelkader – As per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should be moved to El Emir Abdelkader since that is the most common official name used. Plenty of towns and landmarks in Algeria are named after him such as El Emir Abdelkader (Aïn Témouchent), Zmalet El Emir Abdelkader, Bordj El Emir Abdelkader, Emir Abdelkader Mosque, etc. which all use the proposed spelling of his name. There is no reason to use a transliterated Arabic version of his name, especially given that there is no consensus on how it is spelled and that there are plenty of variations. TonyStarks (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. There is a reason to use his name - it is the name of the person discussed in the article. Emir is a generic title and titles aren't normally used to begin Wiki article titles about persons. Moreover, Abd al-Qadir is a common first name. A cursory glance of the history of Islamic states will reveal a lot of emirs, greater and lesser, named Abd al-Qadir. What you are proposing is akin to renaming James I of England to simply King James, simply because some local things are named after him (e.g. King James Bible). Finally, why do you spell it Abdelkader? There is better reasons to use the transliterated Abd al-Qadir rather than Spanish/French spelling. Walrasiad (talk) 18:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. It's not a Spanish/French spelling, it's his Algerian spelling .. and last time I checked he was Algerian. Also, why use the transliterated version of "Abd al-Qadir" as a spelling when an official version of the name already exists? With regards to Eimr, if you feel it's generic it can be dropped .. but we should at least be using a proper version of his name if it's available, which is the case. TonyStarks (talk) 04:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Qualified oppose. There are two different issues here, the spelling and the title. There is a good case for using the Abdelkader spelling as it's the standard transliteration in his own country. There are, however, about 100 people with this name, however transliterated, notable enough to have wikipedia articles, and "emir" is not a very distinctive title. So I'd support a move to Algerian spelling but with retention of some surname or other disambiguation. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I've never heard of another historical figure named El Emir Abdelkader, and this is coming from someone that is Muslim and Arab. If "Emir" is not very distinctive, I'd keep the same name of the title but change the spelling to Abdelkader El Djezairi, which is the common spelling of that form of his name. But again, I don't see why we can't use the first option. TonyStarks (talk) 02:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I'd be happy with Abdelkader El Djezairi. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 14:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I am sympathetic to TonayStarks' concerns and generally do not like those transliterations of Arabic as they are often imprecise and rather confusing considering all the possible variations and the fact that they do not reflect the common pronunciation and in this case "Abdelkader" is more common in English (I suppose) then "Abd al-Qadir". But then again, the other users have rather compelling arguments, I think a common ground can be reached. How about "Abdelkader Ibn Muhyiddin" or something of the sort...or just "Abdelkader" or "Abdelkader al-Jazairi", I don't see any other possible primary topic for Abdelkader. (yes there are other Abdelkaders but not as notable as this one IMO) --Tachfin (talk) 03:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment. I'm with TonyStarks on this one! use his Algerian name, whats so complicated about that? I'm sure one of the following can be used El Emir Abdelkader, Abdelkader El Djezairi, Abdelkader Ibn Muhyiddin or Abdelkader Ben Moheddine (not sure about spelling).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

tributes

Thackeray was kind of a supporter of his, and Elkader, Iowa is named after him... AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting, especially the latter part. Who would have known. Do you have a source for it? The one used in the Elkader article no longer exists. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It was discussed in the NPR story on Monday... AnonMoos (talk) 04:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Military campaigns need more detail

The article "May 1958 crisis" about a period of turmoil in France contains twice as much information about the wars in Algeria as this entire article. More detail on this conflict is surely available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.80.200 (talk) 05:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

verifiability of a ressources

I doubt this statement of ami de la france so if you can bring to us a reliable online source stating it, it would be ok for me.

I quote the verifiability policy: No matter how convinced you are that something is true, do not add it to an article unless it is verifiable, and All information in Wikipedia must be verifiable.

-Dzlinker (talk) 09:53, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The "quotations" you gave don't lead anywhere, they're strongly suspected to be fake, provide a verifiable ones, and stop reverting hysterically until a consensus is made.

-Dzlinker (talk) 19:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I wrote abdelkader friend of france in google and all i get is this: [1], please reverify your ressources and quote the polemic expression from a trusted site.

I'll keep the current version of the document until it is done, if in a week you don't provide an answer, i'll assume you are unable to, and your edits will be undone.

-Dzlinker (talk) 11:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Since quoting sentences and giving references and links doesn't seem to be sufficient for some:

• (French) : "[Les nationalistes] refusent de reconnaitre le rôle d'ami de la France joué par l'émir à Damas sous le Second Empire. En 1860, en effet, Abd-el-Kader intervint pour protéger les chrétiens lors des massacres de Syrie, ce qui lui valut d'être fait grand-croix de la Légion d'honneur par Napoléon III" --translation--> "[Nationalists] refuse to recognize the role of friend of France played by the Emir in Damascus during the Second Empire. In 1860, Abd al-Qadir intervened to protect Christians during the massacres in Syria, that won him the grand cross of the Légion d'Honneur by Napoleon III"
  Jean-Charles Jauffret,La Guerre d'Algérie par les documents, Volume 2, Service historique de l'Armée de terre, 1998, p.174 (ISBN:2863231138) [2]
• "[Abdelkader was] transferred to Damascus by Napoleon III. There he became a friend of France, saving twelve thousand Christians from the Turks at the time of the massacres in Damascus, and refused to ally himself with the insurgents in Algeria in 1870."
  Herbert Ingram Priestley, France Overseas: A Study of Modern Imperialism (1938), American Historical Association Publications, Routledge, 1967 (ISBN:0714610240) [3]
• "The French continued to pay his pension and monitor his activities, and 'Abd al-Qadir remained a self-declared 'friend of France' until his death in 1883."
  N. Achrati, Following the Leader: A History and Evolution of the Amir ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Jazairi as Symbol,The Journal of North African Studies Volume 12, Issue 2, 2007 [4]

--Omar-Toons (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Abd al-Qadir

Why does the article insist on using the "Abd al-Qadir" spelling of his name? Can you please provide references to support the use of this spelling of his name??? If we're going to change the article title, we should change the article to match it as well. TonyStarks (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 13 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved – Emir Abdelkader looks much closer to the WP:COMMONNAME of this historical figure than any of his other names and aliases. Low participation in the move request would point to lack of consensus but sources do favor the target title, the lone Oppose argument with WP:SOVEREIGN has been countered, and a previous move was apparently non-consensual. I am admittedly applying a bit of WP:IAR in this close. — JFG ^talk 00:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

---

Abdelkader El Djezairi → Emir Abdelkader – A rather bizarre decision was taken by the closing admin last time, who decided to move the page to the very uncommon, strange, wrong-sounding and awkward current title. (I believe anyone familiar with the topic natural's reaction to the current topic would be "wait? who?"). The request last time was to move the page to "Emir Abdelkader", by far and large the most common name. Alternatively if there is objection under the guise that Emir is a title, then I propose using his real name "Abdelkader ibn Muhyiddin".
There are many problems with the current title. Not only is it very uncommon in English (or even French for that matter, outside of recent official Algerian government media) but it is also misleading as it gives the impression that the subject was from Algiers. A city which he never visited or had any relation with whatsoever. Tachfin (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose: per WP:SOVEREIGN: "article titles are not normally prefixed with "King", "Queen", "Emperor" or equivalent" - royal titles should not be used in article titles. Ebonelm (talk) 21:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. On google scholar and google books "Emir Abdelkader" receives an order of magnitude more hits than "Abdelkader El Djezairi". Ebonelm, I'm not sure I see the relevance of WP:SOVEREIGN here, this guideline explicitly states there are no explicit conventions on Middle Eastern monarchs. – Uanfala (talk) 12:53, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Uanfala, you missed the second part of the sentence out "but contemporary monarchs with Arabic names are often treated much as this guideline would suggest". I see no reason why an exception should be made in this case. –Ebonelm (talk) 22:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you missed the second word in the bit you quote, Ebonelm. A 19th-century figure isn't quite contemporary, is it? – Uanfala (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I'd argue that in this case by using "contemporary" what it meant (as opposed to what it literally said) is referring to any figure from the modern period, otherwise it would mean that once someone was dead we could suddenly change their article titles to whatever we felt like. I know in the literal sense contemporary only means 'in the present' but usage of such terminology has weakened (in fact the term 'modern' also technically means "just now" but we have since used it as a title for an period of time). Ebonelm (talk) 22:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you that contemporary means "modern", but I guess we have different views on the temporal extent of modernity. At any rate, I don't understand the rationales behind this particular wording in the guidelines, so I'm not in a position to try and interpret it. However, the two facts remain: the guideline says there's no guideline, and the current title of the article is an awkward term with almost no usage. I wouldn't oppose a different article title as long as it is a common one. – Uanfala (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gift of pistols – Lincoln or Buchanan?

Though it is difficult to read, the inscription says "1860". Lincoln did not take office until 1861. While it is possible the date refers to the date of the riots, it seems unlikely. Did the pistols in fact come from James Buchanan? Though it cannot be cited as a source, this blog briefly mentions the gift: http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/2010/07/abd-el-kader-and-massacre-of-damascus.html

And from the United States came a gift of a pair of finely wrought colt pistols – one source claims they were made of gold – delivered in a maple box which bore the inscription: "From the President of the United States, to his Excellency, Lord Abdelkader, 1860."

(Two of my sources claim the gift was sent by President Lincoln, not President Buchanan. While this would make the story even better – one of our best presidents rather than one of our worst – Lincoln did not take office until March, 1861.)

The claim in our article is actually unsourced, or at least it lacks an in-line citation. Other references online repeat the claim that Lincoln gave the Emir the pistols—at least one does so while saying he did so in 1860, before he took office. Anyone know the real story? WP Ludicer (talk) 00:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Family of Abdelkader

@M.Bitton, I'm not sure why you waited for another editor (@Descartes16) to revert my addition again. You tried to reject the sources, claiming they are old, so I added The Larousse entry to address your concern. I'm not going to discuss the reliability of the sources, as I'm confident you know they are highly reliable. 808 AD (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You know exactly how WP:ONUS works, so for you to ask them to seek consensus when that's you role makes no sense. Regardless of what some cherrypicked sources say, the fact of the matter is that his remote (ancient and unsubstantiated) ancestry is disputed (see the French wiki article) and irrelevant to his notability (what he is known for). M.Bitton (talk) 15:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Two (or maybe three?) highly reliable encyclopedias include this information (the facts that his family came from the Rif and that it belongs to the Hashim tribe) in their entries on Emir Abdelkader, so what prevents his Wikipedia page from doing the same? As far as I can see, it is not disputed. If you have checked more sources, please cite them here. 808 AD (talk) 16:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I said what I needed to say about the fact that any claims about his remote ancestry are pure BS (as Maghrebis had no civil registries), it's irrelevance to his notability and the ongoing cherrypicking (self-explanatory). Feel free to help yourself to some more irrelevant claims in the French wiki article. M.Bitton (talk) 16:15, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Should this statement: "Abdelkader's family was one of the most influential in the Arab Hashim tribe, which, after residing for a long time in the Rif region of Morocco, moved and established itself in the 18th century in the Beylik of Oran." be included in the early years section?808 AD (talk) 16:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This statement is false and can be put away very easily, one his famous ancestor (Sidi Kada) was born in 1535 in Tighennif (Mascara), so way before the 18th century. His genealogy is also very disputed and the French Wikipedia gives a lot of informations.

Please see the relevant sources in the French article:

-Abdelkader Boutaleb, L'emir Abd-El-Kader et la Formation de la Nation Algerienne : De L'emir Abd-El-Kader à la Guerre de Libération Nationale, Prose Publishing, 2013, 410 p. (ISBN 978-0-9575177-2-1, https://books.google.com/books?id=xJvsoAEACAAJ), p. 55

-Abdelkader Boutaleb, L'emir Abd-El-Kader et la Formation de la Nation Algerienne : De L'emir Abd-El-Kader à la Guerre de Libération Nationale, Prose Publishing, 2013, 410 p. (ISBN 978-0-9575177-2-1, https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/947843177), p. 55 Descartes16 (talk) 17:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

(Invited by the bot) The way this is (so far) presented is that a careful respondent would need to take an hour learn about and analyze everything to respond. Which is going to be very few people. Also, the discussed text contains at least 3 different statements and they probably need to be treated separately instead of as a bundle. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

References