Talk:Lancelot

old comments

This article needs to be updated. It is now know that Sir Walter Map likely had nothing to do with the Prose Lancelot's creation.

Yes and maybe make a story for it Lawrence addog (talk) 05:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Ok thx for letting me know 80.193.16.217 (talk) 16:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Chevalier Mal Fet

I fail to see why the inclusion of a pseudonym here is not needed. Isopropyl 13:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It just doesn't need to go in the first sentence. If you want to add it to the appropriate part of the article, please do.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added it to T. H. White's section, as it is the title of his book on Lancelot. Cariel 05:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Chretien

I editted the titels of Chrétien de Troyes's works. They are Cligès not Cligés and Le Chevalier à la Charette NOT de la charette.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DanMaroun (talk • contribs)

You're quite correct about Cliges, but "de la charette" is much more common than "à la Charette". --Cúchullain ^t/c 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Both à and de la charrette can be found, but de is more common. And the Cligés spelling is preferred by British scholars, no? (And perhaps better captures the pronunciation of the name....) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.34.187 (talk) 04:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions

Herbert James Draper, Lancelot and Guinevere

I know it is not locked for me but since it is I am less inclined to alter it. It is basically sound but needs clean-up. One thing I noticed up front is that the very long sections look as though they could use some subsections. By the way here is a nice painting if anyone is inclined to put it in appropriately.Dave 15:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

To my surprise I can't find any comparison between Lancelot and the historical figure of William the Marshal. Maggy Rond (talk) 11:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

I put a cleanup tag on this article, because of several things:

• The already-pointed-out large block of text needs to be divided into subsections
• It has no references or ref section
• Needs to be checked against the WP:MOS criteria for the ordering of its sections.

Also, none of the reasons it was denied FA status seem to have been addressed, here Wrad 02:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is mostly just a dump from the 1911 Britannica. It needs to be rewritten, but I'm not sure a cleanup tag is appropriate.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right. It is probably too general of a tag. Anyway, it needs fixing. It's Lancelot! We can't leave him with a blemish! :) Wrad 02:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion:

This Lancelot article needs not editing but complete replacement. The 1911 Britannica was good, but much of what this article says is now simply wrong. Not only was Walter Map dead when the cycle attributed to him was composed, but it is incorrect to say that there is no critical edition of the prose Lancelot. And some of the material naturally reflects the bias of scholars like Jessie Weston (who wrote for the 1911 Britannica) and others whose views are now disputed or discarded. Despite the excellent and well-deserved reputation of the Britannica 5th, a 96-year-old article on Chretien, the prose Lancelot, etc. is of little use and passes on a good deal of incorrect or misleading information. Njl2 16:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree with you. Even in English there's a very good edition of the complete Lancelot-Grail cycle now, and at least one translation of just the Prose Lancelot that I know of. This needs a complete rewrite.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is my replacement for the article. Hopefully, this will be a good starting point for others to edit. Portia1780 (talk) 20:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Early or Welsh references?

I've never seen Lancelot in any early or native British literature. Is he just a fiction made up by later continental authors? ---G.T.N. (talk) 23:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

is he not lluch. llauynnauc who appears in the early Arthurian poem "Pa wr yw y porthor?" and who is also listed with a slightly different spelling in Culhwch and Olwen. Loomis thought so. Llwch could be translated as "lake" (cf Gaelic cognate loch) and someone who didn't know Welsh might think he was "Llauynnauc of the Lake" The first "u" could easily be mistaken for an "n". In Culhwch and Olwen there are in fact many Irish names imported into Welsh and so "Lluch Llauynnauc" might be a a Welshification (Cymricization if you prefer) of an Irish "Lúgh Lamh--" a version of the name "Lúgh Lamhfhada" - Lugh of the Long Hand. Who is identified with the Celtic solar god Lugos. Lúgh Lamhfhada appears in a proper Welsh cognate (not just a Welsh spelling of the Irish) as Lleu Llaw Gyffes - Lleu of the Swift Hand.

So Du Lac is a mistranslation of Llwch which in turn does not mean "lake" but is a Welsh spelling of the Gaelic Lúgh Lamhfhada which in turn represents the God Lugos. Maybe. Barcud Coch (talk) 05:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

That's what Loomis suggested, but as far as I know that theory does not have a wide acceptance, being based almost entirely upon speculative linguistics.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Awful book dump

This article is hardly the proper tone for wikipedia. Fine for a private book or treatise, but not a public encyclopedia. 68.101.130.214 (talk) 09:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm going to try to work on this in my spare time. Portia1780 (talk) 21:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The readings list seems to have additions from either the books' own authors or editors. How/Why does the following merit inclusion, for example?:

• K. Sarah-Jane Murray, "From Plato to Lancelot: A Preface to Chretien de Troyes," Syracuse University Press, 2008. ISBN-10 081563160X —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.89.54 (talk) 03:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Complete revamp

OK, after much work, I've reworked this article completely. I tried to get rid of a lot of the weasel words and opinion all over the article, especially when talking about the quality of Medieval romances on Lancelot. That info is probably best moved over into the articles for the Prose Lancelot, Le Chevalier de la charrette, etc.

I also tried to put in a little more information on Lancelot's adventures. I am currently reading the Prose Lancelot (ick), so I will continue to develop this section.

Hopefully, no one will feel the need to completely revert this article. If you feel like I've been delete-happy, please add stuff back in where appropriate (and please don't flame!). Thanks! Portia1780 (talk) 20:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Good start. There needs to be something about Lanzelet and how it relates to Chretien and the greater development of the legend. I also think the "adventures" really needs to refer directly to the sources used it's almost entirely from the Prose Lancelot but that's not made clear, and there is no accounting for different versions- for instance Meleagant doesn't show up until near the end in Malory. That's one thing the Britannica version did well. But good work with the rehaul, I know it's a daunting task.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Arondight

The sources in this section are frankly unreliable. Someone mind fixing this up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.93.46 (talk) 01:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed they are. I amended the current section to point out that the info it contains are only confirmed within the scope of the graphical novel Fate/zero. Also, several facts were not referenced even in the Fate/zero trivia page they were said to come from, so I placed several "citation needed" tags in place. I am not knowledgeable enough reg. Arondight or Lancelot to do anything else, alas. --Tovarich1917 (talk) 13:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed the section as not notable and not sourced to reliable publications.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it should be removed, after all such trivia is often seen on WP, but I do agree that it would at least need to be counterbalanced by infos on the "older" version of the Arondight myth (though from a trans-historical viewpoint, the renewal of such a myth in genres such as Fate/zero is as much interesting). Anyway, I also removed the Fate/zero site from the reflist, but left it in "external links" should someone be interested in this version of Arondight.

Also, we have another, more serious problem : "Arondight" (which is listed in Category:Mythological_swords redirects to Lancelot, but now there are no references to Arondight in the article anymore. Will try to find a way around that.

--Tovarich1917 (talk) 13:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Added a simple reference to the sword's name, with a link towards a more reputable ref. on Google Books. I was unable to find any additional details, though.

--Tovarich1917 (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The fate/zero version is trivial, and does not belong here - at least until reliable, published sources are found indicating that it is important enough to the subject to warrant inclusion. The external link is likewise not necessary, per WP:ELNO. I have removed the mention of "Arondight" entirely, as the only source was a passing mention in one book from 1900. I have never encountered to name "Arondight", or much of any discussion of Lancelot's swords, in any real medieval romance, nor does it appear in Christopher Bruce's Arthurian Name Dictionary. It will probably be worth checking into G. D. West's An Index of Proper Names in French Arthurian Prose Romances and An Index of Proper Names in French Arthurian Verse Romances 1150–1300 to see if it really appears in genuine medieval texts, and if so, where. However, I suspect it's relatively modern. Whatever its source, it certainly wasn't widespread enough to go in the intro.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Then this page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arondight&redirect=no should be deleted too. As to fate/zero, personally I don't care, but doesn't WP love to include "in popular culture" facts ? And it can be interesting, too, since it's that tolerance for "popular culture" that makes WP more than your average encyclopedia. Anyway. Like I said, I don't really care. Just my two cents. --Tovarich1917 (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia (thankfully) seems to be trending away from Trivia and "in popular culture" sections. Clearly material discussing Lancelot (or whatever) in popular culture can be relevant and interesting, but it needs to be attributed to reliable sources and carefully balanced according to its importance to the subject. And like anything, it needs to be cited to reliable sources to be included.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I do agree that that trend should have its limits ^_^. --Tovarich1917 (talk) 11:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sources for Arondight

I did some searching and found a web page mentioning several alternate names for the sword (Aroundight, Aroundyȝt, Raudoudeyn, Randondeyn, Rauduney and Radondyght), citing and quoting George Ellis's Specimens of early English metrical romances, volume 2 (1805, archive.org link) and Eugen Kölbing's The romance of Sir Beues of Hamtoun (1885, archive.org link), both books are available online. There's also an additional sources page which succumbed to linkrot, but I found an archived version. It appears that the name originated in the Romance of Bevis of Hampton, mentioned in some versions of the poem, but not others. IMO we should point the redirect to Beves of Hamtoun (poem) or Guy of Warwick and focusing on covering the sword (and its pop culture legacy) over there. -- Gordon Ecker, WikiSloth (talk) 03:07, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Fictional character or real?

The article does not make it clear if Lancelot was a real or fictional character. Considering the legend, this should be made clear. Dotancohen (talk) 12:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Do not, by their very nature & definition, "legendary" characters imply an "unknown condition" as their status considering whether they were literal historical personas or mythic creations of folklore? 4.242.174.226 (talk) 11:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The King Arthur article has half a dozen paragraphs covering the major theories about the historical basis for the legends of King Arthur. It would probably be appropriate to include something similar here if it can be adequately sourced. -- Gordon Ecker, WikiSloth (talk) 03:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Quite real. The Prince planned that to squelch the abundant warrings of Nations, he would propose that the Royals should attempt to end their squabbles with lancing duels; there came to be many lancings; thus Lance-a-lot. Quite simple.Gnostics (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, no, Gnostics is just having a chuckle here. See the Origins section in the article. Note that lance comes to us from French, and that -ot is sometimes used in French as a diminutive suffix. The name might come from that, but I think you'll find there has been a lot of study on the name's origins, none of which points to -elot coming from a lot. Eric ^talk 17:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

A double diminutive might work; Lance + -el + -ot. Note that gauntlet comes from gantelet; gant (glove) exists, but the intermediate term gantel does not, it went straight from gant to gantelet. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

L'Ancelot

@PhiChiPsiOmega:, what are you referring to with "the manuscript evidence of L'Ancelot" here? That sentence reads like it is recalling something already mentioned or commonly known, but I don't see any occurrence of the term or mention of a manuscript elsewhere in the article. Eric ^talk 14:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I came here to comment on this. I don't see what evidence could possibly exist. Apostrophes just weren't used yet in French, you get them in early printed edition from about 1535 (when the acute accent appears) but that's about 350 years after the death of Chrétien de Troyes. I'd have no objection to removing this, given it's uncited, and, unless I'm missing something, no evidence of this could actually exist. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Ancelot is in the Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue (generally considered the best Old French dictionary of all), though it appears to be unattested, Godefroy included it based on the proper noun Lancelot, it seems that ancelot isn't actually used, anywhere. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:43, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

In fact, he seems to have included it based purely on attestations of the proper noun Lancelot, which would make this reference circular. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Alan Rufus and Gunhild?

Has any historian considered the possibility that one of the inspirations for the Lancelot and Guinevere story may have been the famous case of Count Alan Rufus (the Breton who was commander of William the Conqueror's household knights) and Princess Gunhild, daughter of King Harold? Archbishop Anselm of Canterbury corresponded with Gunhild, urging her to return to Wilton Abbey and berating her for loving Alan Rufus and, after his death (4 August 1093), taking up with his brother Alan Niger. Geoffrey of Monmouth (c. 1133) doesn't use the affair in his stories, but perhaps that's because Alan's brother Count Stephen of Tregor (c. 1060 - 1136) was the political leader of a large Breton military contingent widely distributed across Britain at the time.

Chretien de Troyes was under no such constraint, though the marriage of Henry II's and Eleanor of Aquitaine's son Geoffrey to Duchess Constance of Brittany, a descendant of Stephen's and heiress to his extensive estates (and more), in 1181, might have made literary diplomacy more complicated. That the Angevins were as interested in Arthurian Romance as the poets and writers they sponsored is evident in the name of Geoffrey's and Constance's son, Arthur.

The real-life Percival family were Breton and connected with Alan Rufus's family, so placing a Perceval among the "attainers" of the Grail is interesting. Zoetropo (talk) 04:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lancelot/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Hello, Im not an editor so i did not want to change anything. I noticed that you said in the start of the third paragraph that "According to legend Lancelot's father is King Ban of Benoic and his mother is named Elaine" But in the start of the Early prose and poetry section you state "Lancelot was the only child of King Ban (Pant) of Benoic (Genewis) and his queen Helaine (Clarine)." Perhaps it is because of different early text, im not sure. Elaine is the name of the women who gave birth to Galahad. Just thought i would point it out. Just trying to help. WP Mythology: Where are the references ? Goldenrowley 02:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Article also describes Lancelot as "less interesting" than other characters. That strikes me as pure POV. John Carter 22:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Film, Television, and Other Media...

There is some real trash in the FTaOM section, including several instances where Lancelot shows up on screen for five minutes during a TV show and disappears. IMO it really needs to be modified to only include stuff here where Lancelot is the main character, or the Knights of the Round are the primary subject of the series, and the "this section is incomplete" should be taken away - it just encourages people to add junk. One episode of Twilight Zone, or some random Transformers gag, does not belong here.

Also, it's entirely TV- and movie-centric. Where is "The Once and Future King", or "Mists of Avalon" (the book), etc?

Hornpipe2 (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree whoreheartedly. IMHO, the section in question should be vaporised. It is unworthy of an encyclopedia. Spem Reduxit (talk)

It should be retained, but written as a prose based on referenced scholarly works (there are many written about modern Arthuriana). --94.246.150.68 (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

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Poorly sourced

The article is extensive, but large sections of it have little to no references for their assertions. Any suggestions for available sources? Dimadick (talk) 09:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

What is Family'?

The Lady of the Lake is mentioned under family but his own biological son Galahad is missing. 103.210.40.230 (talk) 21:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

"Alondite" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Alondite has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 12 § Alondite until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 08:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC)