Talk:Hurva Synagogue

Inaccurate?

Why is it that so little of the information in this article is accurate? The Ramban Synagogue, while indeed below the Hurva, is a separate synagogue. It was founded by followers of Yehudah HaHasid, but it was in the eighteenth century, if memory serves me correct. Etc. etc. etc. I wish I had my texts here with me for precise info, but right now, this is very wrong. Danny 05:20, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have today rewritten some and added a lot of info to this topic. I believe the reference to the Ramban synagogue is correct but will check and update if required.--KevR 13:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Jordanian commander??

The Jordanian commander on the scene is reported to have told his superiors: "For the first time in 1,000 years, there's not a single Jew left in the Jewish Quarter, and not a single building that hasn't been damaged. This will make the return of Jews here impossible."

This passage is unsourced... and the only references I can find for it on the web appear to be lifted from this page... wikipedia mirrors, one blog and one discussion forum. I suggest removing it unless it can be properly cited. 128.232.240.178 21:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It's in the several Haaretz articles below. Btw, did anyone notice the similarities to the speech of Amon Goth in Schindler's list ? Evil is evil.

"They trundled their belongings into this city, they settled, they took hold, they prospered.

For six centuries, there has been a Jewish Cracow. (<->"For the first time in 1,000 years, there's not a single Jew left in the Jewish Quarter")

By this weekend, those six centuries, they're a rumor. They never happened. Today is history." Amoruso 12:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Taken from the text of the section entitled Arrival of the Perushim..... "One night he was shot at by an unknown assailant who missed but later drowned after falling into a cistern. On a second occasion he was attacked on his way to prayers early one morning. He was struck on the head with a sword and died of his wounds three months later." Is it being suggested that he died twice - should the report of the initial attack state that he 'later..... [nearly] drowned...' rather than '....later drowned....' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.242.66 (talk) 15:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Spelling??

In Hebrew, a bet following a shva nah should have a dagesh, hence the name should be "hurba", not "hurva". Although apparently very common, it is nevertheless a misspelling, and Wikipedia shouldn't propagate it.--Doron 20:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If there's no objection, I'll correct the spelling and rename the article accordingly.--Doron 00:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 02:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

No one calls it the Hurba, and you are doing a disservice by trying to "correct" this. It has always been "Hahurva." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gilabrand (talk • contribs) 08:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

No, it is Hurba, with a dagesh in the bet. There is no "hurva" in Hebrew. I'd appreciate it if you discuss this in the talk page before changing the article.--Doron 08:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There is prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. Technically you may be right (although Alkalai lists both hurva and hurba). On the other hand, the site is popularly known, wrongly, perhaps, as Hahurva, also in many history and geography books. If you want to educate people in proper pronunciation, a brief explanation of this on the page would be good, but the few people who will ever seek English information about this synagogue on Wikipedia are bound to type "Hurva." And yes, I know they are re-directed. It reminds me a little of Latrun - a historical mispronunciation of the French. Yes, it's wrong. But that's what the place is officially called. Sorry about not discussing this first. No offense intended.

The name Latrun, like many placenames, originates from a mispronunciation. The Hurba Synagogue, on the other hand, has only one correct Hebrew name, and we're talking about how to translate it to English. "Hurva" is based on a common mispronunciation, but it did not become the name of the place, and if it is written in Hebrew without the dagesh, it would be a misspelling.--Doron 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Being such a stickler for proper grammar, how come you wrote "beit haknesset hahurba"? In smikhut it should be "beit knesset hahurba." --Gilabrand 09:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No. It is not the house of the assembly of the ruin, it is the house of assembly "the ruin" ("the ruin" is the name of the synagogue). Its official name was Beit Haknesset Beit Yaakov, (and in Jerusalem there are also Beit Haknesset Hagoral, Beit Haknesset Haramban, etc.; also, one says Beit Haholim Ha'emek, not Beit Holei Ha'emek).--Doron 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

---

In English, the synagogue is officially called the Hurva, that is firstly the spelling on the English maps provided by Israel's Ministry of Tourism, but also on the sign outside the synagogue it self! I've never seen it spellled in English as Hurba. (I know it's חרבּה in Hebrew). It's not our role to decide what we think the translation should be. I took a personal photo a few days ago, and I'm posting it here to show (look at the sign). It is called the Hurva in English, regardless of what it is called in Hebrew. I reverted the change. Wikipedia:Naming conventions Epson291 07:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding? This is a sign by the building contractor, I'm surprised they didn't misspell their own name (and same goes for the tourist map). We can't rely on these sources to determine the "official" spelling, or even that there is an "official" English name at all. "Officially" the synagogue is called Beit HaKnesset Beit Yaakov in Hebrew. I've seen very few references to the English misspelling -- too few to establish it as an "English name". The place has a Hebrew name and we should ronamize it correctly.--Doron 04:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not kidding you. I have seen it as Hurva in books, so I don't know what you've read. Also a Google test shows Hurva the much more popular spelling. And, the building's construction sign says haHurva, so I'm not sure how much more "proof" is needed. Surley though the synagogue will change the sign if it's spelt wrong? I agree it's a mispronucation, I don't know why this exists, but it does, and it isn't Wikipedia's job to "fix" it. Things are pronounced different ways in different languagues Epson291 01:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Which books?--Doron 07:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Many,

1. "One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate" - Tom Segev (2001)

2. "Hurva symbol: Synagogue, Jerusalem" by Peter Buchanan (1983)

3. "Frommer's Israel"

4. The Holy Land: An Oxford Archaeological Guide from Earliest Times to 1700 By Jerome Murphy-O'Connor (1998) - Oxford University Press

5. A Guide to the Lands of the Bible By Leslie J. Hoppe (1999)

6. Israel and the Palestinian Territories: The Rough Guide By Daniel Jacobs, Shirley Eber (1998)

7. Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-fashioning in Israeli Society By Nadia Abu El-Haj (2001) University of Chicago Press -

- (This book points out spefically that the Hurva Synagogue comes from the Hebrew word for ruin, Hurba)

Doron, every book I have ever read on the history of Jerusalem, and I've read quite a few, has called it the Hurva in English. Epson291 08:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, please review WP:NAME and WP:UE, that is the basis of why to call it "Hurva" Epson291 08:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I accept your position. I was not aware that this misspelling was so prevalent.--Doron 11:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Sir Martin Gibert's Jerusalem in the Twentieth Century, (1996), spells the name "Hurva."

Quotes

I think the quotes here are way too long (and end up being boring). I would summarize them in a few sentences.--Gilabrand 10:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Please have a go – (maybe the boxes themselves are inappropriate as well?) - I'll see what I make of your improvements! Chesdovi 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I have modified one of the boxes. What do you think? I will try to do the same with the description of the shul but would like to retain most of it as it is a very comprehensive account which I think is important to have. Chesdovi 20:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Jewish legion Flags

• Were Flags of the Jewish Legion hung in the Hurva? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.89 (talk) 14:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Abdullah el-Tell quote

The following eludicated quote of Abdullah el Tell is reprinted in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jerusalem, by Jeffers, H. Paul. Alpha Books, 2004, p.164. ISBN 1592571794. Not being a RS, if anyone has his original memoris (in English?) (The Calamity of Palestine, the memoirs of Abdallah al-Tall, (Arabic), Cairo 1959), please re-add, citing references. Thanks! Chesdovi (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

"Operations of calculated destruction had been set in motion because the Jewish Quarter had no strategic value. Its buildings and shrines were not destroyed in battle. All this took place after military activities had come to a standstill."

Vilna Gaon prophecy quote

Haaretz journalist Nir Hasson wrote in 2009 that "According to a prophecy made by the Vilna Gaon, the synagogue's third completion will precede the construction of the Third Temple." Can the original souce be found? Chesdovi (talk) 02:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking into it. --Dweller (talk) 11:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

How exactly? I would try and contact Hasson somehow to see where he got it. I did make a phone call to R' Moishe Sternbuch whom I thought may be able to give an insight here, but unfortunately, do to the inferior quality of the long distance call and his advanced age, I am not quite sure he understood what I was asking him. So didn’t get very far. I think having the el-Tell quote (see above) would be easier to get and think is more important for the article, but I don't read Arabic! Chesdovi (talk) 12:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive in any way. --Dweller (talk) 12:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I emailed Nir Hasson a couple of times with no response? Chesdovi (talk) 10:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Synagogue is not in Israel

But in the occupied east Jerusalem [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Synagogue is not in the British mandate of Palestine either.[2] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

What flag should I use? Chesdovi (talk) 00:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Since it is in Palestinian land, the Palestinian flag, or no flag at all. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I used the flag saying Palestine, and you said not to? Chesdovi (talk) 01:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the Palestinian flag: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Palestine.png --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure its not the Jordanian one? The synagogue was indeed once in Jordan, thought never in a State of Palestine? Chesdovi (talk) 01:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Yep, the present flag of Palestine is similar to the Jordanian one. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:02, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. The "Old City" of Jerusalem is and has been under Israeli sovereignty. The city was occupied by Jordanian forces from 1948-1967. Before 1948 it was occupied by the British (with the outdated red flag that says "Palestine" in English). There is no reason to say that Jerusalem, specifically the Old City, is not within Israel because a group of people claims it is part of a state that has to date never existed. 109.253.44.160 (talk) 06:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Useful external links

http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=18000 - photo gallery of opening.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U9kME8jStuMC&pg=PT53&dq=churva&lr=&cd=10#v=onepage&q=churva&f=false - "ancient custom" of children answering yehei shmei rabbah.

Rabbi Elyashiv visits the Hurva, 31/03/10

Why can't we acknowledge

that the synagogue was reduced to rubble by the Arab League? Are we trying to be PC here? Isn't the idea to give as much reliable information as possible? Every attempt to include the fact that it was dynamited by the Arab League during the 48 War gets reverted.  ?? Stellarkid (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. There exist many reliable sources for this fact and I have cited WSJ.com. Elihabibi (talk) 06:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

in the aftermath of the FAC

I did agree with the comment about lack of detail on architecture. There must be a comparison somewhere between the old and new Hurva Synagogues - i.e. how faithful is the restoration and what divergences there are. And more details on the architecture of each. This and the other prophecy bit would be good to sort out before copyediting again (always good to nail down comprehensiveness before smoothing out the prose...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I looked at other FA architecture sections and I just cannot come anywhere close to that standard because of lack of sourced material. Sorry. Chesdovi (talk) 11:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

For FACs I write, I very often have to go to libraries to get books for the extra detail. Might there not be some books on the subject? Architecture of 19th century Jerusalem or something (?) And if this is a reconstruction, surely there has been some discussion somewhere about how faithful it is to the original and how it deviates? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:14, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Sabbatean leanings

See משיחי השקר ומתנגדיהם by Rabbi Hamburger, Appendix V, in which he discusses the Sabbatean leanings of the founders of the Churva Shul. He also discusses the history of the shul, as well as the implications of the appointment of Rav Simcha Kook as its Rov. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 16:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

This is cultural material, right? This article needs some of that within. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue seems to be another article about the same site. --Vicky Ng (talk) 22:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I will remove the merge tag as the Tiferet Yisrael is actually a different synagogue located some distance away. Chesdovi (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. --Vicky Ng (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Image Gallery

I would like to thank Jser:ChesdovilChesdovi the editor who removed the image gallery and explain why I reverted his or her edit.

This award winning arricle featured, until his edit late last year,, a beautiful gallery of images of the building, past and present. This article has won awards in the past for its quality as an architectural article; most articles on churches, synagogues, mosques and other religious structures feature beautiful galleries, and asking people to go to Wikimedia to voew them cheapens the article and makes these photos less accessible, especially since many people don't know how to search that site. Therefore, I have restored the gallery. If it is removed again I will seek arbitration; in addition I am submitting this article in its present form with the gallery for consideration for another award for a good architectural article.

 I also fear  the removal pf the images of the new synagogue in particular could be perceived by some as anti-Semitic, and celebrated by anti-Semitic anonymous trolls who keep vandalizing the article, who I know User:ChesdovilChesdovi is opposed to, in violation of Wikipedia's policies; depicting photos of the old synagogue in ruins in large quantities without showing the photos of the beautiful details of the new synagogue, like the mural "By the rivers of Babylon" and the stained glass windows, sends the wrong message (that wikipedia likes showimg pictures of synagogues in ruins but not those same synagogues when they are rebuilt).   I have put this article on my watchlist and I don't want to see that gallery removed again; if you want to rearrange the pictures to evenly distribute them through the article, that would be acceptable to me, and would probably be a good idea, provided none are removed, but I urge you User:ChesdovilChesdovi to not remove the gallery again.  If you wish to make a counter-proposal regarding image content in tje article, I would be prepared to hear you out,.  Wgw2024 (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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Compound

By the 13th century, the area had become a courtyard, known as ''Der Ashkenaz'' (the Ashkenazic Compound),<ref name=Horovitz2000p171-174/> for the Ashkenazic community of Jerusalem.<ref name=Blumberg1981pp62-63>[[#refBlumberg1981|Blumberg (1981)]], pp. 62–63.</ref> In 1488, [[Obadiah ben Abraham Bartenura]] described a large courtyard containing many houses for exclusive use of the Ashkenazim, adjacent to a "synagogue built on pillars", referring to the [[Ramban Synagogue]].<ref name=Shulman1992>[[#refShulman1992|Shulman (1992)]], p. 51–52.</ref> The Ramban Synagogue had been used jointly by both Ashkenazim and [[Sephardi Jews|Sephardim]] until 1586, when the Ottoman authorities confiscated the building. Thereafter, the Ashkenazim established a synagogue within their own, adjacent courtyard.<ref name=Horovitz2000p171-174/>

I have moved the above here, as it doesn’t appear to relate to the area of this synagogue, but is written as if it does.

Does anyone have access to the underlying sources who can confirm? Onceinawhile (talk) 01:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Well todays Ramban Synagogue lies directly below the Hurva....? Chesdovi (talk) 03:25, 9 September 2021 (UTC)