Talk:List of flying boats and floatplanes

Odd moves

Um, what was the point of that move? —Morven 07:02, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Uh, what move? -Lommer | ^talk 20:57, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This move:

20:56, Dec 15, 2004 Ingoolemo (List of flying boats and seaplanes moved to List of seaplanes and flying boats)

In other words, User:Ingoolemo did a move that reversed the order of 'flying boats' and 'seaplanes' in the title. I was curious as to the point. —Morven 01:04, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

That's really bizzarre - the move doesn't show up in the page history (isn't it supposed to? where did you get it from?). However, I do see what he's doing though, there's already a category called "List of seaplanes and flying boats", and he wanted the associated article title to match. So rather than edit every article in the category over to a new category he just changed the the title of this one. -Lommer | ^talk 06:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It shows up in the page history of the PREVIOUS name, not this one. In other words, in the history of the redirect that's created at the old name. Annoyingly, the article existed way before categories, so by rights it should have been the other way round ... —Morven 06:32, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

I'd think that it's because seaplanes is a more generic term; flying boats is more specific. User:justfred

organization

I would expect these to be organized, first by country then by either manufacturer then year or model, or by year somehow. Moved the early ones to the top of US section. Do these ALL need to be listed, or only the common ones? Or only the manufacturers?

I notice that there are entries under the country heading 'Croatia' that list aircraft built in other countries (Canada, USA). This does not appear to be consistent with the general structure of the article, which appears to only list aircraft under their country of manufacture. I think that this Croatia entry should be removed, but I am hesitant to do it myself because I have not previously contributed to this article. PanEuropean (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well spotted, removed. MilborneOne (talk) 21:11, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

In fact, isn't this page really replaced by category:seaplanes and flying boats? --user:justfred

Yes, it is. However, if the category is to be as useful as this page then it needs to be broken into country-specific sub-categories and then the entries sorted by date. This is easy enough to do and once done, this page should be deleted I think.-Lommer | ^talk 19:16, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are floatplane variants included?

I added two DH Beavers. This is a secondary application of this aircraft. Leonard G. 02:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

New amphib to ad

The Air Tractor 802F can also be added to this list. See www.firebossllc.com - the aircraft is now flying fire fighting missions in Minnesota through the MNDNR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.30.164 (talk) 06:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

New name

This has been discussed elsewhere (probably on WT:AIR), though I don't recall when exaclty. Anyway, I've decided to be bold and correct the title to better represent the article's content, as flying boats ARE seaplanes (though not floatplanes, which is probably what was confused here). Amphibious aircraft are generally defined separately from full-time seaplanes, though the difference is offten just whether or not the aircraft is fitted with wheels. Even so, I believce the new title is more comprehensive and accurate. - BillCJ (talk) 10:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - to be clear though, it is not necessarily wheels per-se, but that the undercarriage can be used to land and take off from land - a number of seaplanes carry beaching gear, but not landing gear, and several have been equipped with skiis. - NiD.29 (talk) 20:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

This class if aircraft is usually described in reliable sources as flying boats and floatplanes or, in some locales, as flying boats and seaplanes.= (e.g. [1]). They are invariably taken to include amphibians, which are seldom explicitly mentioned in the title. Because of its ambiguity, I'd suggest that "seaplane" is best avoided and that we rename this page "List of Flying Boats and Floatplanes". — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:07, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

What qualifies?

I'm curious what qualifies a plane to be on this list. I've flown quiet a few sea planes but none of them are on this list. Is this only military sea planes or is there some other criteria? Otherwise the list seems a bit random to me because it seems far from complete. Perhaps these are planes that *ONLY* are sea planes vs. those that are converted under an STC.--66.60.137.134 (talk) 02:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Nope - the list just isn't complete - I have added a bunch more but if there are any you think should be included feel free either to add them, or mention them here. NiD.29 (talk) 04:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Do projected planes, of which a prototype never flew, also qualify for inclusion in this list? E.g.: Martin P7M Submaster. Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 15:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Speaking without authority, and without any official background, I can see no reason for not mentioning projects that did not materialise. The important point is that we bring supported information, i.e. our facts must rest on solid references. There are plenty of articles about projects that never worked out. And anyway: if you bring in something _definitely_not_ qualifying, you may be sure some puritan will remove it as quick as anything! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The Saunders-Roe Duchess got quite far in design terms. [2] More importantly it illustrates that some thought there were legs in flying boats even in the jet age. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback! I'm working on the P7M wikiarticle and expect to release it soon. Kind regards, DPdH (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Weird Missing Plane?

Saw this ? in Aviation Week magazine: thinking it was Swedish because coastal patrol for smuggling (they use submarines for that too). It was touted as having extreme range for longer patrol time. inboard wing sections had wide anhedral section ending in floats then dihedral wing section of narrower width. Had T tail with single engine at intersection of T. The article noted the wing was designed to take advantage of "ground effect". It had no "step", the inner wing and floats creating an air cushion. It was at military prototype stage. I'll keep looking. Shjacks45 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure Ground effect vehicles are considered to be aircraft. MilborneOne (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Walsh Brothers: nationality?

Walsh Brothers Flying Boats is mentioned both in the paragraphs on Australia and New Zealand. I can find no link with Australia, but perhaps I am unaware of some information? Jan olieslagers (talk) 09:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Nothing in the article mentions any connection with Australia. MilborneOne (talk) 10:54, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, you certainly are bolder than myself, thanks for quick and (I think) adequate action! Kudos! Jan olieslagers (talk) 11:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

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Split table?

I am wondering if we should split the table between flying boats, floatplanes and amphibians to make it more manageable? Most of the ski aircraft fall under flyingboats fwiw. - NiD.29 (talk) 20:00, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Two mistakes, in my view:

• amphibians can be either floatplanes or flying boats, they're not a separate category
• do not split up, rather unite (especially at Christmas time :) )

However, an extra column would do well to mention either floatplane or flying boat. But, err, we did have this information, and it was recently removed, if I remember all right? I rather regret that change, nor can I see a good reason for it. Jan olieslagers (talk) 20:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

• We currently have less than 50% of the possible entries so far, which means the page is going to get much larger. As in having trouble editing or even loading the page large.

Perhaps you need to actually read the page before commenting? There is already a column for them - third column in. Could you offer an argument that isn't entirely based on emotions and ego? Neither of those are "mistakes" and the second point is beyond irrelevant, nor does splitting the table impact the first point. As for amphibious floatplanes, most use either amphibious or non-amphibious floats as needed, since the floats are a post-manufacturer addition, meaning a note would be needed for almost every one of them. That would just be pointless noise better mentioned once, in the introduction. A Cessna 182 on floats is a floatplane regardless, and only specific examples are amphibious.

An amphibious flying boat on the other hand is fairly explicit, aside from the models that are one or the other. Very few are converted after having left the factory - the Dornier 24ATT is one of the few to qualify, while the PBY entry (and ones like it with variants covering both) should be split regardless into entries for the flying boat models, and the ampbibs. - NiD.29 (talk) 20:52, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I had indeed overlooked the third column. Further comments deferred. Jan olieslagers (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Certainly think that the floatplanes could be split into a different table, as they are mainly aircraft with "optional" floats like the Cessnas and Pipers. MilborneOne (talk) 07:25, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

This list has the great benefit that if you do not know whether certain seaplanes are flying boats or floatplanes, or might be amphibious, you can find out here and compare them with the others. If the list is to be split, then some visitors will want it to be broken down alphabetically by manufacturer, others by class, others by role, etc. If the list really does become excessive, let us worry about it then. While amphibians are not a separate category, they are principally all flying boats. The same applies to hydro-skis and -foils. Amphibious floatplanes are transient "specials", not worth listing separately from their water-only siblings. What we have now is the best compromise between clarity and searchability on the one hand, and laborious micro-definition on the other. I think there is a case for excluding floatplanes which are conversions of landplanes, but I think it unhelpful to remove types which are not to be found in lists of landplanes. An alternative would be to identify then as a separate class, as say "Float conversion", and I'd prefer to try that out first. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:23, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I was just concerned at the eventual possible size of the page, as only some of the best known examples are included so far. The problem I see with amphibious floatplanes is that any floatplane using commercially available floats, such as Edos, can optionally use amphibious floats, so long as that model of float has an STC for the installation - and it isn't always easy to identify which ones have done so. Excluding types because they were originally landplanes fitted with floats would not be helpful, as the distinction is extremely arbitrary. Indeed in numerous cases the floatplane came first, then a better known landplane variant was developed from it. - NiD.29 (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Jets and landplane variants

Jet flying boats are rare and quite noteworthy. I think it was a mistake to relegate this information to a footnote, and I propose restoring it to each applicable entry in the Notes column.

So many floatplane types are variants of landplanes that the footnote looks absurdly huge. I would suggest creating a special Class entry for these, such as "Floatplane (variant)" and just explain what that means in the lead section.

Any thoughts? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Just "floatplane variant of X" in the notes column would work for production aircraft. Or for one offs be more explicit eg as I did for Vultee V-1 and V-11. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Not especially - using jet propulsion is no more relevant than having a turbine or a rotary is - or being a glider. A footnote should be sufficient, otherwise we will soon be inundated with pointless trivia, and the note allows us to include more text without using up too much space in the table.

The number of entries on the variants note is large, yes, but not excessive. Removing it because it offends your visual sensibilities is an absolutely terrible idea, especially since it isn't otherwise clear on many of them (especially ones from the 1930s) whether it was a dedicated design, or just used on floats sometimes, and while many of the designs are well known to be operated on both, others are not, and interestingly, there are a surprising number of landplanes that were never cleared for a floatplane modification even in categories where it was common, while for others it was a design requirement from the beginning.

We could split the notes up - some aircraft have an explicit version identity assigned to floatplanes - many of the Italian ones had Idro after the model number, while French aircraft often had H or HY. Other aircraft such as the PA-18, just allow any aircraft to be a floatplane or landplane with no changes in designation and there was no distinct variant, just a capability that may be used frequently, or rarely, depending on the type and the operator. In some cases, it is a combination - the Northrop Deltas built by Northrop were strictly landplanes, but the variants built by Canadian Vickers for the RCAF were required to be able to use wheels, skis and floats interchangeably.

Splitting them to make that distinction makes the most sense, so one footnote could read

• Variant developed from landplane design.

and the other:

• Optional equipment used on aircraft commonly used as landplanes.

Or some variation thereof.

Both the existing note and these notes could be further divided simply by making two or more entries, such that the listing is divided by first letter of the manufacturer (A, B, C ,D etc) , or by groups of letters (A-C, D-G, H-L, etc).

Having the note forestalls arguments that would inevitably devolve to arbitrary cutoffs on how often one type of undercarriage was used, vs the other (difficult if not impossible to reference), or when in the design process floats were included - which would likewise be difficult to nail down and which is irrelevant. By the latter, a J-3 Cub would likely be excluded, but not a PA-18 Super Cub.

It is lands on water, it should be listed here. It doesn't make much sense to me to just include those designed from the start solely as floatplanes, as one of the purposes of lists like this is so someone can identify an aircraft - and as it stands, it helps narrow down the search a lot, but if we start excluding some because arbitrarily, someone doesn't see the particular aircraft as a floatplane because their knowledge is limited to its use as a landplane, it won't be very useful for that purpose. It also wouldn't provide unbiased coverage of the topic to exclude some simply because the floats could be swapped for wheels. In a any case, someone had to design the modification, test it, get it certified in most cases and offer it for installation, just as if the manufacturer had done so. - NiD.29 (talk) 15:18, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Template issue

Template:Avilisthead is widely used for aircraft lists, see Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Avilisthead. If we are going to abandon it for the sake of some visual editor or other, that needs consensus. Maybe the template can be fixed for compatibility? Has such a discussion taken place yet? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:23, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, I checked out the WP:Visual editor. First off, it's only in beta, so any incompatibilities should be reported to the developers and NOT used as a reason to change Wikipedia's content. Second, if you know your Template:Avilisthead options, the visual editor adds it just fine. Just select parameter name 1 (as in "1") and enter the desired option value in the next field (here, it's "general"). But Visual Editor only deals in whole tables and you can't use it to kick off a table with a template. When I then added a row in the code editor, it worked fine. But the visual editor thought I had added it to a template parameter value or something, and barfed when I wanted to add another. So that is what needs reporting to the VE developers. Feel free, I hate such things and have no interest in making it work. And be warned, this kind of issue has dogged attempts at a visual editor for as long as I have been here, so you may well get a "use the code editor for that bit then, it's only a click away" type answer. But if they get back to you and ask for code changes to the template, then fine I'll take a look at what they ask. But until then, any attempted fixes are pointless. Not sure if all this helps, but it's the best I can offer. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:02, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Not Beta, not for years "On English Wikipedia, it is enabled by default for new users". The replacement of the Avilist template with the code means it still adheres to the format agreed in the WP:Aviation Project - it just isn't using the avilisthead template to do it. For editing tables, for me VisualEditor is much more effective than hunting backwards and forwards through a labyrinth of double pipes, more so when the pipes are horizontal || || || || || || rather than distributed vertically. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:15, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

PerWP:VE; "Enable VisualEditor. Log in, go to preferences (top right) -> editing tab, uncheck uncheck Temporarily disable the visual editor while it is in beta." Perhaps you'd like to get that updated. As for discussing the use of Template:Avilisthead, see my original remarks; this is not the place to do it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:42, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Cruft

What is with the plethora of useless notes being added? None of these are helpful, and several are simply wrong.

We don't need to know "Contract for 7 cancelled". It does not add anything useful here.

"Modification to existing carrier types, for catapult use"? No it wasn't. The Flycatcher was designed from the outset to use floats. Per the wiki page - it was "designed to meet the requirements of Specification N6/22 for a carrier and floatplane fighter". Note the second part.

"Same plane"? What is supposed to be the same as the Goodyear Drake? The Duck was a two seater, the Drake a much larger 4 seater, so they were in fact two different airplanes, even if they have been lumped onto the same page pending someone doing the second page.

We also don't need to specify details on the Vultees, where the floatplane was given substantial media coverage and so is well known.

Looking up the page numbers for the German source as well - that reference came from the list of aircraft page.

Also who keeps changing the Piaggio P.7 and the Zeddelin-Lindau Rs.1 to projects? Both of these had prototypes that were built. They were NOT projects, which implied that no potentially flyable airframe was built. 21:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

By all means delete unnecessary cruft and fix errors of fact. This whole list has needed serious knocking into shape - and thank you very much for your contributions to that, much appreciated. I comment below on the points I am responsible for:

Re. the Flycatcher, I picked up on the main page lead, which says that "It was produced with a conventional undercarriage for carrier use, although this could be exchanged for floats for catapult use aboard capital ships." It may have been designed to be converted, but a conversion it was, they were not built with floats. For all I know the lead may be wrong, but that's what it says.

Re. Project status. Our list style guide at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Lists#Status states explicitly that "if a type has not flown then it remains a "Project", whether or not construction was started or even finished." If you wish to challenge that consensus, please open a discussion on the guide's talk page.

— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Notes column is for "key information". That a design was copied and more made than the given production number is relevant. That a floatplane was specific one off when rest of production was conventional is relevant.GraemeLeggett (talk) 12

13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)