Talk:Joni Mitchell

Request edit 2018-06-11

I have a suggested addition for the "Awards and honours" section:

In 2018, Mitchell was honoured by the city of Saskatoon, when two plaques were erected to commemorate her musical beginnings in Saskatoon. One was installed by the Broadway Theatre beside the former Louis Riel Coffee House, where Mitchell played her first paid gig. A second plaque was installed at River Landing, near the Remai Modern art gallery and Persephone Theatre performing arts centre. As well, the walkway along Spadina Crescent between Second and Third Avenues was formally named the Joni Mitchell Promenade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drm310 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Approved  spintendo  00:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

CC or... OC?

Is it really Joni Mitchell CC (top right, above the info box? In the article on Buffy Sainte-Marie you have OC for the same honour - and a more plausible abbreviation of "Order of Canada". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpapke (talk • contribs) 09:26, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, because Mitchell is a Companion of the Order of Canada (CC) while Sainte-Marie is an Officer of the Order of Canada (OC). Graham87 13:51, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Joni's dad's profession

Every time I put in what her dad did for a living after the war - he was a grocer - someone deletes it. I think that is an important part of her history and she has mentioned it countless times. What's the problem with mentioning it? Who keeps deleting it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.148.199 (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

You didn't just add that; you also added info that contradicted the rest of the article without a reliable source. Graham87 14:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I was the first one to add that her father was a flight instructor during the war. That came from her father's obituary, which I found online. I didn't mention the source, someone else added that. I also added that, after the war, her father worked as a grocer. She talks about it all the time when she talks about her family. It is a fact mentioned in numerous articles about her, The Calgary Herald 'Swerve' February 2, 2007 is one example. Her dad was a flight instructor during the war. Only during the war. Then he became a grocer. It's pointless to change it because it always gets deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.148.199 (talk) 07:59, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

When was this? I've fixed up the early life section of the article with sources; it's sorta in line with this version from 2016. Graham87 16:40, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition. But the paragraph is not written well. It doesn't flow. I'm not talking about what you added. I'm talking about the whole paragraph. I'm picky. I had it flowing until people came along and changed it. I give up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.148.199 (talk) 07:49, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 1974 Joni Mitchell.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

No mention of first marriage

I'm surprised that the article mentions her marriage to Larry Klein in 1982 but not her earlier marriage to Mr. Mitchell. John Link (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It's there, in the "1964–1967: Career beginnings and motherhood" section: "Sometime in late April 1965, Joni left Canada for the first time; she traveled with New York City born American folk singer Charles Scott 'Chuck' Mitchell to the US, where the two began playing music together. Joni, 21 years old, married Chuck in an official ceremony in his hometown in June 1965 and took his surname. ..." Graham87 03:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

So it is! Perhaps the section ought to be entitled "1964–1967: Career beginnings, motherhood, and marriage". What do you think? John Link (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

No objections. Would seem much fairer, especially for a BLP. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

No objections to the idea, but I'll make a couple of tweaks. You'll see. Graham87 15:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

done. Graham87 15:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Um, so now..... no mention of first divorce? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It would be an improvement to include something about her first divorce. John Link (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, the article says "The marriage and partnership of Joni and Chuck Mitchell dissolved in early 1967 ...". :-) Graham87 03:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it does. Although apparently unsourced. And it makes it sound like there was never any formal legal divorce. The status of her autobiography, that she signed up with Random House to write 30 years ago, is not clear. It it one of these? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so. I for one haven't heard anything recent about it. Graham87 15:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

The divorce is mentioned in this 2017 book review: "In 1965, she gave birth to a daughter whom she ultimately gave up for adoption. After this, she married folk singer Chuck Mitchell, and they began performing in Detroit and New York City, but she quickly divorced him, telling Yaffe that her husband was her "first major exploiter." Maybe there are more details in Yaffe's book? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Yaffe's book does not give a specific date for the divorce, but refers to her as "a 24-year-old divorcee". There are multiple sources (here's one) that state that they were divorced in 1967. I've clarified the text - "dissolved" was a little unclear. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Recent releases

Hi folks, I have just entered the 2020 recordings into the list of Studio Albums, but some of the material is live and I guess that might call into question whether we change the section name to Albums, and include some other live sessions? I can understand that when you start entering live albums, it is easy to drift into bootlegs, so perhaps it stays as Studio Albums? What do people think? I don't have a problem if a few responsible editors agree to delete what I put in. All good.

Greg (New Zealand) Realitylink (talk) 08:40, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

They are essentially compilation albums, albeit containing previously unreleased recordings, both studio and live. It would be clearer and simpler not to include them in the list in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I guess you are right. Perhaps there could be a section on live albums though, just thinking of Miles of Aisles and Shadows of Light - and now these collections. I am happy for the ones I added not to live in the current section for now. Is anybody keen to set up a place to look at her live albums? There has been a lot of interesting discussion around these lately, and they are an important part of her work. Just a thought.

Greg Realitylink (talk) 09:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

And, as you do, I have just picked up there is a category for her live albums! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Joni_Mitchell_live_albums

Realitylink (talk) 09:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

This article (Joni Mitchell) should only provide an introduction to her discography, and in my view the only albums it should list are the canonical ones from Songs from a Seagull to Shine - though there is a case for including the live ones released during her performing career like Miles of Aisles. Readers interested in her entire discography - including compilations, anthologies, singles, etc. - should be directed to the discography article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:48, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I can totally see that. Realitylink (talk) 22:10, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

I was surprised to note the lack of a section on "Personal life" that would pull together in one place her marriages & other events that are presently scattered throughout the present page. Is there any reason not to create a "Personal life" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WilliamWQuick (talk • contribs) 16:25, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Right now it's mostly arranged chronologically. Not that other methods aren't also fine, but IMO chronological is good. North8000 (talk) 17:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Someone should add to the infobox both marriages - Chuck Mitchell (1965-1967) and Larry Klein (1982-1994). I tried, but the infobox kept getting messed up for some reason, so I didn't save changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.67.13.101 (talk) 06:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree. The article is really confusing to any reader who wants to know about her personal life. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Norwegian ancestry - so far, still no Sami found yet

https://www.bt.no/kultur/i/7Pe79/ble-fortalt-hun-var-same — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:c0:df02:1b00:b472:8dc7:35e8:e390 (talk) 10:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Joni Mitchell discography

1974 live album “Miles of Aisles” needs to be included. 67.247.204.25 (talk) 06:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

The list in the main article about Mitchell is for studio albums only, as is standard here. Graham87 14:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Smoker at age 9??

I can't access the source. Could someone give us a direct quotation to support this? Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 02:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

You can use the archived link ... there are other ways in for free as well. FWIW it says this: "I have smoked since I was nine, so obviously it didn't affect my early work that much." And then she diverts into a rambling reminiscence of childhood in the remote farming community of Saskatoon. "I would grab my tobacco and get on my bike, looking for a beautiful place, a grove of trees or a field, and go amongst the bushes and smoke and that always gave me a sense of well being." I think I've seen her say similar things in other interviews. Graham87 02:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Meh, I've switched the URL out to the Joni Mitchell Library copy. Graham87 02:58, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Spotify / Joe Rogan

I added a sentence to the lead but it was reverted here with the edit summary "recent news not needed in the intro". Just to note that this controversy was mentioned today on BBC Radio News, and discussed on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme and has led to Rogan commenting and Spotify reacting by adding a content advisory notice to podcasts: [1] Martinevans123 (talk) 13:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree that it's not something for the lead, per MOS:BLPLEAD - "Well-publicized recent events affecting a subject, whether controversial or not, should be kept in historical perspective. What is most recent is not necessarily what is most noteworthy..." Chicken scratching for immortality, in other words. Nice to see her on news sites though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

OK. I doubt she will be featured tomorrow. But it was the rarity of the mention that prompted my addition. I don't suppose it will appear in the lead at Neil Young. But then he's know for being a bit bolshy? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Ghmyrtle. This is of fleeting importance to her whole career, at best ... and lol at the "Hejira" ref. Graham87 15:31, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that it is best to not put that in the lead, including for the reasons described above. North8000 (talk) 16:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

• I also concur that this is not a major part of her story. It is correctly covered by a few short sentences in the main body, but does not belong in the lead. --Jayron32 16:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest Mitchell's immortality was assured a while ago, whether or not she's able to scratch Rogan off Spotify. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Recent edit

I naturally agree with this edit by Ghmyrtle, but I think it's worth pointing out (because I for one had no idea about this!) that Shelagh McDonald is actually a rather obscure singer-songwriter with a sporadic career and a fascinating life story whose early 1970s music does have some resemblance to Joni Mitchell's. The best example I could find after a quick check was her take on "Let No Man Steal Your Thyme", a song I know from the Pentangle version. I think Shelagh McDonald is probably too obscure to mention here though, even if we did find a source about Mitchell's influence on her. Graham87 02:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

And I found said source where she off-handedly mentions Joni Mitchell, but I still don't think it's worth re-adding. Graham87 03:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I imagine that there are hundreds of notable musicians who have claimed to have been influenced by Joni Mitchell. A few of the most notable could be mentioned - but we don't want to start trying to include every one. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Mitchell is currently not mentioned at Shelagh McDonald. One might expect a small mention there, but probably not here. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:59, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Update needed

If anyone has the energy to update this article, it needs more about her performance at The Gorge and about her Newport album release. Elttaruuu (talk) 08:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Gershin award 2023

Diana Krall also appeared as one of the featured artists 174.93.89.135 (talk) 11:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added her because she's mentioned in the second cited reference. Graham87 15:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

edit of 25 January 2024

It seems to me that with the text "when the dust settles" removed in this edit, it isn't clear why we're being speculative. We then have to say that either she is/was the most influential female recording artist or not. If we don't have an answer to that now, then I think we need to leave in the implication that this is yet to be determined. Fabrickator (talk) 22:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear when Jason Ankeny wrote that. Sometime in 2011? So perhaps not the dust "of the late 20th century"? Either way, the AllMusic no longer has that text. Perhaps it already has been decided (but not by Jason Ankeny). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:51, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If Ankeny did not start that sentence with "Joni Mitchell may stand..." are we not at least obliged to show some ellipsis at the start of that "quote." I didn't realise we were simply allowed to simply remove bits of a quote we didn't like. Also, is it ok to have the quote only in the lead section and nowhere else? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

This quote, starting with "when the dust settles", was published in April 2000. See Joni Mitchell Biography by Jason Ankeny. On the Allmusic webste, that text was removed in later versions, but the earliest version available on wayback only goes back to 2011. However, wayback has a 2006 copy from the Joni Mitchell website. Fabrickator (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so Ankeny is a better source than AllMusic? And his biography would be a better citation that an old AllMusic page? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know that we have a statement from either AllMusic or Ankeny as to when they first posted it. We have two identified sources, AllMusic and Joni Mitchell, and we have Wayback's record of when they archived it. The oldest page from AllMusic is a Wayback copy from 2011. That's as far back as the Wayback archives for AllMusic.com go. OTOH, Joni Mitchell's site claims to have posted the column in October 2000, but dates the column to April 2000. Here is the oldest Wayback copy]. There is nothing that is inconsistent with the April 2000 claim. Fabrickator (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Apologies. I had assumed that Ankeny had written a book. So it's basically all AllMusic. But we still get to chop off the first four words... because the dust has settled, or because we don't know when the dust will ever settle, or because we don't believe in dust, or because there's no dust on Joni? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

claim about reason for move

Article states "her father took a job as a grocer and his work took the family to Saskatchewan". I am skeptical of the claim that the family specifically moved to Saskatchewan to obtain or retain his position as a grocer. It seems just as likely they moved there for any number of other reasons and then he obtained a job related to his prior work experience. Fabrickator (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The source given says this: "At this postwar point, Mitchell's father was out of the service and employed as the manager of an outlet of the O.K. Economy chain of general stores in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, a rural suburb of the provincial city of Saskatoon." So that seems to fit, if not exactly? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

This leaves the impression either that he needed to move to Saskatchewan as part of his existing job as a grocer, or that they pulled up roots from wherever they were to accept the job as a grocer.

Evidently, the fact is that having left military service, he found work as a grocer in Saskatchewan. While the current wording might be literally true, the way it is worded leaves me scratching my head. Fabrickator (talk) 17:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree that the job title "a grocer" might be misleading. So what about: "After the war, her father worked as a manager of an O.K. Economy store in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, a rural suburb of Saskatoon." Her living in Maidstone would need another source. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

While this whole thing is pretty much a minor point, I will respectfully disagree with your interpretation that "grocer" might be misleading. A grocer is the owner or manager of a grocery store, OK Economy is known as a defunct chain of grocery stores, so based on the source, her father was in fact employed as a grocer.

What I take issue with is the claim that it was his work that "took the family to Saskatchewan". There's nothing suggesting that they moved to Saskatchewan in connection with maintaining or obtaining employment as a grocer. It appears to be a mere fabrication. Fabrickator (talk) 02:48, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you could suggest an alternative re-write. The current source doesn't support her living in Maidstone, so that should probably be removed? I think there might be a slight difference between the meaning of "grocer" in UK and Canadian English. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I had actually intended that i should only report problems and take no interest in actually getting those problems fixed. My issue was very narrow, you seemed to want to expand the issue beyond what I reported. Subsequent edits precluded a simple revert, so I have reverted the objectionable edit manually. It isn't perfect, but it addresses the issue I intended to raise. Fabrickator (talk) 14:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I see. She does mention Maidstone in that interview, so that's fine. I had thought that "manager of an O.K. Economy store" was more accurate than just "grocer". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Joni Mitchell

It states Joni is Canadian-American. Let me say, she is CANADIAN! So often this happens on here with many other Canadians. Just because they may live in the US at times does not make them American. Very annoying for all of us Canadians! 92.15.83.254 (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The article says: "Mitchell is both a Canadian and U.S. citizen." Do you disagree with that source? Sorry if that's too annoying for you. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Citizenship

An article came out today where she says she is Canadian and cannot vote in the US Election (Oct 21, 2024). See link below: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/oct/21/joni-mitchell-lets-rip-at-donald-trump-at-rarity-laden-us-concert

This suggests, surprisingly, that she still doesn't have US citizenship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.42.214 (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

See thread immediately above. Is it possible to renounce US citizenship? Or have it forcibly removed? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)