Talk:Prime Minister of Spain

The position is NOT Prime Minister

In Spain, there never has been a position called 'Prime Minister'. Since the first elected governments, the leading position has been a president, During the Cortes of Cadiz, there were a President ( José María Gutiérrez de Terán ) And under the first democratic monarchy, there were presidents Canovas del Castillo and Práxedes Mateo Sagasta. I need to know... who has decided that Spain's governor is called 'Prime Minister', while it's clearly called 'President'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.136.7.161 (talk) 08:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. As you can see in the article, it is widely explained that the official title in Spain is "president of the Government" but, internationally, heads of government who are not heads of state are known as "prime ministers". TheRichic (Messages here) 12:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Are we having this discussion again?

Zape82 (talk) 09:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Link to the relevant discussions.[1] Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 02:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Position of columns

The name of the PM should be at the far left instead of the monarch, since we want to read about the main subject first. --Jiang 02:50, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean? The PM names are at the left for me, just next to the related pictures, while the monarch is at the far right. I tried to check whether this is a "unicode bi-di" issue, but clicking "switch page direction" in firefox did nothing. Habbit (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

President of Spain?

Is there no pisition of a president of Spain? RickK | Talk 05:45, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No. Spain is not a republic. --Wik 05:46, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Per CIA Factbook, the Head of Government is called President of the Government (Spanish: Presidente del Gobierno), so yes, there is such a thing as President of Spain. --Cantus 05:54, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Can you grasp the difference between "President of the Government" and "President of Spain"? --Wik 05:56, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

The point being, it is still called a President. --Cantus

Wik is right that it is never "President of Spain". As far as I know there is no country that has both a "president" and a reigning monarch. Precisely because of this "presidente" is commonly used as shorthand for "presidente del gobierno", but he's no more the president of Spain than the president of the United States Senate is president of the United States. -- Jmabel 06:06, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, then ;) --Cantus 06:13, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Stop this idiocy please. "Governors"??? --Wik 23:56, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Given that both the Chief of State and Head of Government are listed, it is appropriate to call it List of governors of Spain. The page Prime Minister of Spain should not be a list, only a definition of what the Prime Minister of Spain is. --Cantus 00:01, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Neither the king nor the prime minister is a "governor". A governor rules a subnational entity or a colony. And the list is mainly about the prime ministers, the kings have a separate article. --Wik 00:06, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

The Presidents of Spain ruled the First and Second Spanish Republics. --Error 02:58, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Spain has a prime minister, in Spanish Presidente del Gobierno literally "Chairman of the Government". Spain does not have a president (a republican Head of State, which would be Presidente del Estado Español) but rather a King. — Chameleon 17:35, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm Spanish, and i have to say that the definition of the word "President" depends from the Nation. So, the "President of Spain" has a diferent meaning than the "President of the USA". There isn't a general definition for "President". "Prime Minister of Spain" is an incorrect definition, it`s like if i called Tony Blair as "President of UK", or George Bush as "Prime Minister of the USA". This is not a correct definition. The only correct definition is "President of Spain".

Not at all. I'm Spanish too (hell, I could even post my DNI here to prove it), and the office is not named "Presidente de España", but "Presidente del Gobierno" (de España/la Nación/whatever). The literally translated title would be "President of the Government of Spain", as it has been argued here, but that very position (the chairman of a government council) has an English name by itself: Prime Minister. You argue that we call Gordon Brown (breaking news: Tony Blair resigned. Long ago) "Primer Ministro del RU" instead of "Presidente del Gobierno de RU". Well, that's true. So? There doesn't need to be reciprocity, so that's just non sequitur. The issue with a direct translation of the Spanish title is that in English "President" usually carries meanings beyond that of "head of executive", like "Head of State", and is usually associated with republican regimes. Both conditions are met with your Bush argument. However, you could say, that's the Spanish title! I'm fine with that, and "President of the Government of Spain" would also be a good title for this article, but "President of Spain" is definitely not. Neither in Spanish nor in English.Habbit (talk) 21:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok... It's the same thing i want to say (better explained too (thanks, i forgot Gordon Brown XD)). The point that I wanted to emphasize was this: France and USA, both are Republics, but their Presidents have different political competitions, because the french President is the "Chief of State", and France also has a Prime Minister (Head of Government), but de President of the USA is "Chief of State", and "Head of Government" too. So, these two types of presidents are really different, although they are both called with the same name: "president". All the countries have different cultures, and differents names for "similar" things, all of us must respect this.

I'm spanish (another one) and I think the correct form of express the concept of "Presidente del Gobierno" is "President of Government" because, while Spain is not a republic, the difference between the spanish system and the english system is the Status Quo of the members of the government. British PM is a "first among equals" and Spanish President is the Head of the government (well, it colud be another form of express this), being the other members subordinates to him. sorry, my english isn't well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trancas3.0 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I think there are several different issues here. One is what the post is normally called in English and in my experience the term "Prime Minister" is always used by the British media (and not just for Spain but also Italy, Poland and indeed nearly every other country's head of government post bar Ireland, Germany, Austria and those countries where it's a combined state and government headship) and indeed by British ministers. I can't comment on other countries but I'd expect that if the governments of the countries had an issue with it they might discretely have a word, at least for when having joint press conferences and statements. As others have said, translation is not a one to one process. Whilst "President" traditionally meant just the "presiding officer" of a body and still survives in a few titles (e.g. Lord President of the [Privy] Council) in practice the term in English has come to mean the head of an organisation and in political terms it's used to mean the head of state. When Michael Heseltine opted to revive the title President of the Board of Trade there was much comment on what this said about his ambition and ego, something that wouldn't happen in a language where "President" still has a broader meaning.

I take your point about the UK Prime Minister traditionally being "first amongst equals" (although the phrase was originally an insult meaning "king's pet") but in de facto practice the UK Prime Minister is head of the government and the ministers-are-all-equals concept has long fallen away. That's even before we get to other Prime Minister posts that have been head of the government from day one. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, Zapatero was received at the Pittsburgh G-20 summit as the "President of the Government of Spain".--Follgramm3006 (talk) 01:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I know it could be confusing, but there is no such thing as a "Prime Minister of Spain", and as a spaniard it was very confusing when I started to read this page. There is no Prime Minister, and if you read the Spanish Constitution (Spanish: https://boe.es/legislacion/documentos/ConstitucionCASTELLANO.pdf; English: https://boe.es/legislacion/documentos/ConstitucionINGLES.pdf), it says, everytime, "The President of the Goverment of Spain" or just "The President". The King of Spain is the Head of the goverment, and has no power to rule the State of Spain, but to "arbitrate and moderate the regular functioning of the institutions and to assume the highest representation of the Spanish State in international relations", The Spanish Constitution, Section II, Chapter V, Article 56,1. It means that the power of the King has much more of a symbolic nature, and can't be compare, no even a bit, with the power that a President of a Republic as France has. Actually, the President of the Goverment of Spain has much more de facto power than the King, as the King can't even express his own political opinion. That said, this article should not be called "Prime Minister of Spain" nor "President of Spain", but "President of the Goverment of Spain", as the Spanish Constitution calle him, no matters the language in which you check it. If you are going to write about the goverment of a county, at least you should read the basics of its constitution. You can also check the Spanish Wikia. What really shocks me is that this article is that this discussion started like 16 years ago, when I was two years old, and nobody checked the Constitution before writing anything. --Osci_Tienal 21:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Under WP:COMMONNAME, Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject, and Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above.. A vast majority of English-reliable sources refers to the officeholder as "Prime Minister of Spain", not as "President of the Government of Spain". This is why the official name appearing in the Constitution is entirely irrelevant here, because English readers (and, you know, this is the English wikipedia) will recognize the guy holding this office as "Prime Minister", not as "President", because most media in English will typically refer to him like that. Plus the fact that, in English, the term "president" is typically reserved for heads of state, not heads of government, and will cause a lot of confusion. Impru20^talk 22:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Title of page

I moved this page from Prime Minister of Spain to List of Presidents of Spain, hoping it would stay there, but user Wik moved it to List of prime ministers of Spain.

Then I tried moving the page to List of Prime Ministers of Spain, unsuccessfully. The title Prime Minister should be capitalized, so this page should be changed to List of Prime Ministers of Spain or List of Presidents of Spain

--Cantus 05:52, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Certainly not "Presidents of Spain". I couldn't move it back to the original title, so I had to choose a new one that made sense. --Wik 05:56, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Well, isn't that sucky? Any admins that can do the trick? --Cantus 05:59, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This article is not merely a list. Please make the move war between Prime Minister of Spain and President of the Government of Spain and not a "list of" title. --Jiang 09:08, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Name/Date formats & Zapatero

Why are the earlier Prime Ministers in the format "Garcia, Juan" and the more recent ones in the format "Juan Garcia"? The earlier format is wrong and should be changed. And why is Zapatero here when he has not yet taken office? He could die tomorrow. The April 2 date is pure speculation. I will fix these errors. Adam 08:13, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well, now that you've most certainly looked at the source, you saw that there was a "TO BE DONE" message there to alert editors to change both name and date formats in first entries. I know it was wrong when I added them, but I didn't have the time to change them to the proper format. --Cantus 00:50, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Removal of two military labels

Francoist presidents of the Government Torcuato Fernández-Miranda and Carlos Arias Navarro were NOT soldiers but civilian politicians. In addition, Arias Navarro was a INCUMBENT president, not an ACTING one

Requested move 2005

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Contradictory information: the "move template" at the top of this page suggests a move to President of the Government of Spain; WP:RM suggests moving to Prime Minister of Spain. Either would be an improvement on where it is now, but my vote goes to Prime Minister of Spain as where it really should be. –Hajor 19:58, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. The vote below is no longer active. violet/riga (t) 17:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment - From CIA World Factbook:

  chief of state: King JUAN CARLOS I (since 22 November 1975); Heir Apparent Prince FELIPE, son of the monarch, born 30 January 1968
  

  head of government: President of the Government Jose Luis RODRIGUEZ ZAPATERO (since 17 April 2004); First Vice President (and Minister of the Presidency) Maria Teresa FERNANDEZ DE LA VEGA (since 18 April 2004) and Second Vice President (and Minister of Economy and Finance) Pedro SOLBES (since 18 April 2004) —Cantus…☎ 03:28, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

The article should not be renamed or moved

no votes

Propose that this article be renamed and moved to Prime Minister of Spain.

• Support, –Hajor 19:58, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support, of course. James F. (talk) 11:40, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support. There are a lot of countries where the Head of Government is formally titled as "President of the..." but the position is best known in English as "Prime Minister". Certainly on the British media the office holder is never called anything but "Prime Minister". Timrollpickering 13:52, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support -- the form most likely to be linked to and searched for. Jonathunder 16:11, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)

Propose that this article be renamed and moved to President of the Government of Spain

• Support - As per CIA World Factbook. After all, we use Taoiseach instead of Irish Prime Minister across Wikipedia. Plus the current name —Prime Minister of the Government of Spain— is an absurd hybrid. —Cantus…☎ 21:26, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• support. Prime Minister and President (as Presidente means in Spain) aren't the same concepts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trancas3.0 (talk • contribs) 18:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support. The name is "Presidente del Gobierno", and english people cannot rename this title because is spanish, and the Spanish Constitution is the law of Spain. In french, italian, german and other wikipedias is "President of the Government" in his languages. Spain has not Prime Minister, has a lot of ministers, but not a Prime. President of the Government is not a Minister. --Hinzel 00:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinzel (talk • contribs)
• Support. I can´t find the words 'Prime Minister of Ireland', but just 'Taoiseach', which is logical, considerating this is his speciffical post in Ireland. If somebody writes 'Prime Minister of Spain', he should be re-led to 'President of the Government' of Spain, and not inversely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.0.179.190 (talk) 14:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
• Support - I am Spanish, and in Spain everybody calls Zapatero "Presidente (President)", nobody calls him "Primer Ministro (Prime Minister)". Therefore, Zapatero is not a Minister neither legally nor in the street. It happens the same in Germany and Austria: Angela Merkel is also German Head of Government and NOBODY calls her "Prime Minister of Germany" but "Chancellor of Germany" or "German Chancellor". And Wikipedia respects that title. For the same reason, Zapatero should be called "President of the Spanish Government", "President of Spain" or "Spanish President". In Japan, nobody refers to Akihito as "king" but as "emperor", and Wikipedia respects that title too. Why are you respecting German and Japanese languages and not Spanish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.221.132.42 (talk) 12:09, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

President of the Government (Spain) → Prime Minister of Spain

Rationale: This debate was already held last year (see above), and it was decided the page should be at "Prime Minister of Spain" as this is the common usage in English. It has since been moved by User:Cantus with no accompanying debate, and a null edit made to the redirect page ([2]) to prevent an ordinary user moving it back.

—SteveRwanda 10:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I live in Spain and here we always says "El presidente Zapatero..." or "El presidente del gobierno". Calling it "Prime Minister" is a complete mistake! Actually, he's not he "prime minister" of Spain nor the government, and we never call him "El primer ministro Zapatero.." --62.57.162.108 19:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support - for reasons above. SteveRwanda 10:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support just move it back without discussion if it was a singular user and a vote was held about the issue before with clear consensus. Gryffindor 17:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I've speedied this; no point in doing it again.

James F. (talk) 23:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move the list away

I think this article should be expanded to include the role and powers of the Spanish PM, both in the current democratic Spain and in past regimes, the method of election and dismissal, etc. This would make it possible to move the (huge) PM list away to some article called List of Prime Ministers of Spain and keep just the last part (since the 1975 Constitution). By the way, I think the list should incorporate the First VP of the Government (i.e. First Deputy PM) below each PM because, whenever the PM leaves Spain or is somehow incapacitated/unreachable, the 1st DPM becomes Acting PM. Thus, María Teresa Fernández de la Vega has been "in power" several times. Habbit (talk) 00:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Since no opposition has been voiced here, and since I've revamped List of Prime Ministers of Spain, I'm wiping the list here and leaving just the PMs since the democratic transition, with a link to the full list. Habbit (talk) 01:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Prime minister vs. president of the government... update

As has been mentioned time and time again, British English references, which must necessarily prevail over translated terms at the English-language Wikipedia, invariably use the term prime minister (of Spain) when referring to Spain's presidente del gobierno, as per the following random example from the press (The Economist): http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12581187 "Speaking to the prime minister of Spain" (Nov 6th 2008)

As for official uses, the updated English Style Guide (Fifth edition: 2005 Revised: March 2009) published by the European Commission Directorate-General for Translation http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/style_guides/english/style_guide_en.pdf

states the following: 19.29 Spain. Full name: Kingdom of Spain. The 17 political/administrative units into which Spain is divided are called Autonomous Communities in English. Translate Presidente del Gobierno as Prime Minister (of Spain).

I suspect, however, that this might not be considered conclusive enough... --Technopat (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

May I also point out that standard Wikipedia practice for several counterpart positions is to use the title normally used in English - thus "Prime Minister of Japan" not "Minister for the general administration of the Cabinet of Japan" or "Prime Minister of Italy" not "President of the Council of Ministers of Italy". Similarly we use "Prime Minister" not "President of the Government" for "Prime Minister of Croatia", "Prime Minister of Russia" and "Prime Minister of Serbia", again because that is the standard way the position is referred to in English. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

So, it's "standarisation" over factual accuracy, now? There is no such thing as a Spanish Prime Minister. It's a misnomer and the only arguments given to support the article having a title which doesn't match reality is the prevalence of a misconception (or purposeful oversimplification) in the British media. Are those the standards a supposedly encyclopaedic work is to adhere to?--84.77.155.153 (talk) 03:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Translation is not a one-to-one process. Frequently one will use the relevant equivalent concept in the destination language rather than the literal translation of the source term because it more readily conveys the meaning. Note that even the English language section of the La Moncloa website uses both interchangeably: [3] [4] Timrollpickering (talk) 10:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I tend to favor President of the Government to Prime Minister myself. The examples given for other nations should... in my opinion... be corrected as well. But I defer to the consensus reached here. ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 00:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"Prime Minister" is a correct english translation, as the role of the President of the Government is the same as the role of a Prime Minister. However, I think in the infobox we should use "President of the Government", as it is the translation of the official tittle. In the articles about the Prime Minister of Italy, the Prime Minister of Croatia", and "Prime Minister of Serbia it works like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.198.89 (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, Zapatero was received at the Pittsburgh G-20 summit as the "President of the Government of Spain".--Follgramm3006 (talk) 01:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Aznar's peerage

None of the so-called controversies links mention the peerage. Unless a clear link is provided, I would consider this Original Research and remove it accordingly. --Phagopsych (talk) 23:44, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and removed text.♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 03:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

President of the Government of Spain, 2011 discussion

Hello all. Considering the general on-going consensus since 05 to rename the page President of the Government of Spain, I propose we actually do this! But the redirect page "President of the Government of Spain" needs to be deleted first so that the name opens up. Thoughts? ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 03:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It's been discussed already. He's a "prime minister" in English. It's like the Spanish refer to the British chancellor as "Ministro de Hacienda" or "Ministro de Finanzas", and not "Canciller". In any case, if anything I would translate "presidente" as "chairman", rather than president, since it's referring to him as being the chairman of the cabinet. --Timtranslates (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 13:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

---

• Prime Minister of Spain → President of the Government of Spain
• President of the Government of Spain → Prime Minister of Spain

– Correct form of the title of the office is 'President of the Government of Spain', and on-going favoritism towards the correct title for the office as expressed in the talk page. 68.106.153.175 (talk) 10:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• And Once again. DOnt ever bother in Discussing --Zape82 (talk) 10:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment -- The BBC commonly referes to this office as "Prime Minister", probably because British people do not expect kingdoms to have a president. The Prime Minister articel should hawever be retained as a redirect. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:48, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The EU and the UN indicate that the head of government of Spain should be translated as Prime Minister of Spain. --Zape82 (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
• Retain current name per WP:UE. The Spanish term may mean something different, but it is established in English that the office is called Prime Minister. Canuck_{My page}^{89 (talk)}, 04:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose since the title in English is usually given as prime minister, but there should of course be an explanation in the very beginning of the article that the title acctually would be president of the government if a literal translation would be made. Paved with good intentions (talk) 13:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infobox

Can user:Zape82 please stop putting Prime Minister in the infobox whilst this may be the common title it is not the official one as per Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Russia. Please no not revet again without discussion. --81.106.240.67 (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

"Prime Minister" is a correct english translation, as the role of the President of the Government is the same as the role of a Prime Minister. However, we should use "President of the Government" in the infobox, as it is the translation of the official tittle. In the articles about the Prime Minister of Italy, the Prime Minister of Croatia, and Prime Minister of Serbia it works like that.

Several issues here: firsly, as per MOS:INFOBOX, the template should be named the common name of the article's subject, which in this case clearly is "Prime Minister of Spain". Other stuff may exist, but that doesn't mean that it is done correctly for those other articles or that consensus is similar in those situations. Secondly, this article covers not only the current office, but the historical position since its first inception in the 19th century. The office has had different names throughout history, all of them easily identifiable under the "Prime Minister of Spain" label but not as "President of the Government of Spain", a name which has only existed since 1938. Thirdly and finally, the post is overwhelmingly referred to in the article as "Prime Minister", so having the template named as "President of the Government" would only lead to confusion. Impru20^talk 21:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Use of the literal translation

I notice that this article uses the literal translation "President of the Government" a lot, as if it were the title of the article. All the discussions above seem to suggest a consensus around the more common English translation of "Prime Minister". Has something changed since these discussions? Or should we mostly use the phrase "Prime Minister"?

Yaris678 (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Recent Presidents of the Government

Hi I'm from Spain and the grafic in Recent Presidents of the Government section it's wrong. Calvo-Sotelo and Aznar are from PP (blue), Gonzalez and Zapatero are from PSOE (red). Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.56.186.1 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)‎

Calvo-Sotelo was from UCD (green). All others are shown in their party's colours. Impru20 (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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Presidente del Gobierno (possible solution)

I have followed this very interesting inter-cultural discussion. And despite the fact that as it can be seen in this televised debate the candidates refer themselves to the office as "el presidente" and "presidir el gobierno", or that as explained here, Trump actually refered to Rajoy as Mr. President because the Spanish embassy told him to, and instructed him that that was the right name (and believe me, I am by no mean a defender of Trump), I do undertand that the mental gynmnastic for English speakers of a President of a Kingdom is impossible to surpass.

However I do have a salomonic solution sort of speak. Why not to just use the original native language term? Just rename the article to Presidente del Gobierno or Presidente del Gobierno Español and that's it, inside the text the explanation can be the same. There are presedents for this for example Führer, Taioseach and Lehendakari. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

A solution to a non-existant problem as of currently, IMHO, since English sources overwhelmingly use "Prime Minister" to officially refer to this office. This means that this is very straightforward under WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NCGAL: When writing articles on government bodies or offices with native titles not in English, an English translation should be favored, except when reliable sources in the English language commonly use the native title. (the other articles you mention are examples of situations where those are the actual terms used in English sources, so not comparable).

Also, you do not seem to account for the fact that, for most of its history (almost uninterruptedly from 1834 to 1939), the office has been named as "President of the Council of Ministers" (Spanish: Presidente del Consejo de Ministros), so "Prime Minister" fits WP:PRECISE better as a term that can be user to indistinctly refer to all the different variations of the office's name. Impru20^talk 19:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Impru20 I have my doubts on how you reach the conclusion that prime minister is the most used term in English (is there a source for that somewhere?) but lets say you can provide the source for such a statement, so if the same source shows that "president" is more commonly use than prime minister, that would mean that the article should be renamed due to WP:COMMONNAME correct? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 20:21, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Enough sources are provided in the multiple RMs and discussions above, but if there is still any doubt, just check results in Google Trends. Even if you use the actual name in Spanish, you'd see that it only comes out on top in Spanish-speaking countries (which seems fairly obvious, IMO), whereas in English-speaking ones the use of "Prime Minister" is absolute (obvious as well).

"so if the same source shows that "president" is more commonly use than prime minister, that would mean that the article should be renamed due to WP:COMMONNAME correct?" You are not going to find that, basically because the term "president" in English has a different meaning that in Spanish (it refers to the head of state of a republican state, whereas in Spanish it has a broader meaning), which adds to the problem of attempting to move this to "President of the Government" or any such variations. In meaning, a more truthful translation would be "Chairman of the Government", since presidente in Presidente del Gobierno/Consejo de Ministros/etc. refers to the head of a given collegiate body. Impru20^talk 20:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Alright but in a hypothetical situation that president became the most "trendy" term? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 20:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

In that hypothetical situation, then a serious discussion on that will surely ensue (and I could very well prompt it). As of now, majority use in English reliable sources is overwhelmingly in favour of "Prime Minister", so that's unlikely to arise any time soon. Impru20^talk 20:51, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Impru20 Am I missreading the data in Google Trends? Because if I'm not then Spanish President and President of Spain have much more common use than Spanish Prime Minister and Prime Minister of Spain according to it. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

President of Spain/Spanish President refers to a different (historical) office, with its own Wikipedia article. So yes, you are misreading it. Also, the "[Demonym] [office]" format does not abide to Wikipedia's naming convention on the topic of government offices. Impru20^talk 16:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

So Prime Minister of Spain compare with President of the Spanish Government would be a valid case? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I do not understand why do you keep bringing unofficial, made-up terms (contrary to Wiki policy, as outlined above). "Prime Minister" is the official term overwhelmingly at use by a wide majority of English-language reliable sources and compliant with Wiki policies. You must realize that you are just prompting a non-existant problem here. Impru20^talk 17:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I did. You didn't answer mine, though, and this reply only confirms what I said. Impru20^talk 18:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I will assume that your answer was a solid yes then. I don't see how my motivations are of any importance. If indeed the naming of an article is because of WP:COMMONNAME then we are on the same page. I do agree that "Prime Minister of Spain" was the most commn use until recently, I also see a trend that seem to be changing it. Obviously if that trend continuous WP:COMMONNAME still applies. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Both WP:COMMONNAME (together with the rest of WP:AT criteria) and WP:NCGAL apply. Even in most of your search results (using cherry-picked choices, btw), "Prime Minister of Spain" is still the most favoured one under COMMONNAME. But then, NCGAL still applies: the article titles for government departments and offices must be official ones, or valid translations used in sources. Both "President of the Government of Spain" and "Prime Minister of Spain" would be valid translations, but the latter outperforms the former in English reliable sources by a great deal. You have cherry-picked the rest of the choices you have brought, proposing a new random name just as the previous one was contested. At this rate, you will be proposing "President of the Government of the Kingdom of the Country Named Spain" if you feel that suits your needs, but that's not how Wikipedia's policies on article titles work. Be serious, please, and don't create a problem where there is none just because you don't like the current title.

I tried to be nice but this is now being close to disruptive. This issue has been discussed over and over in the past, with multiple RMs on the issue all going the same way. If you feel this article should be moved, open a RM and bring up your evidence for your title pick there (though for that, you must first decide which one is the title you actually want). Otherwise, I please ask you to don't keep wasting everyone else's time. Cheers. Impru20^talk 18:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You're getting kind of argumentative on this issue, I don't know if is a personal issue or what but you seem to be taking it against me personally. I did not cherry picked anything, I use the same tool you gave me. I'm applying WP:COMMONNAME as you invoked it, unless it only applies when is works for you. Probably what happened is that you didn't expected the term President of the Spanish Government to be more commonly use right now and thus your strange reaction to the subject. Because again, I'm only using the tool you provide to prove your point. Regarding WP:NCGAL the Spanish government already stablish President to be the correct translation, so again, the policy sustains the change.

Disregarding your feelings on the issue if in the coming months the clear evidence for the use of the term President over Prime Minister is there, I will request a renaming. If you feel that wastes your time feel free to use abstain to participate. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 18:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You initially proposed "Presidente del Gobierno" (yes, in Spanish). You then proposed "Spanish President" and "President of Spain", which you were shown that referred to a different office. Then, it was "President of the Spanish Government". You keep bringing new terms every time the previous one is contested and refuted. That's cherry-picking. Your arguments on the issue have also changed depending on the term you picked, whereas I've not changed a little comma of my pleas to conform to COMMONNAME and NCGAL.

Probably what happened is that you didn't expected the term President of the Spanish Government to be more commonly use right now and thus your strange reaction to the subject. 1) It's not, as per your own source, which still clearly shows "Prime Minister" overwhelmingly preferred overall, but also in English-speaking countries. 2) I'd say it was you who didn't expect it; otherwise, you'd have proposed it as the first, rather than the fourth, alternative title. Right?

Regarding WP:NCGAL the Spanish government already stablish President to be the correct translation. Read NCGAL again: the translation must be the one that is the most used in English reliable sources. As said, "President" has a different meaning in English that it does in Spanish (don't blame me for that). But the fact is that "Spanish Government" is not even the official translation of the referred department (which is "Government of Spain"; Gobierno de España).

Open a RM now if you think the change is due; I'll obviously contest it. But refusing to do so now after all what you have said only backs up the belief that you are aware yourself that what you say is plainly wrong and that you know you won't get such a RM to succeed. Which is what I mean by asking you to please don't waste everyone else's time. Impru20^talk 19:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I was suggesting an option for what is clearly a mistake (the Spanish head of government is not a prime minister). You have not contested or refuted anything, because I haven't suggested any new term. I was using the tool that you provide to check which is the most common term in Englsh and as of right now is "President of the Spanish Government" not Prime Minister of Spain. But don't you worry, I will open a RM for the most common name used in English according to both COMMONNAME and NCGAL.

It is interesting tho how you claim that I proposed several names and you refute them. I have only proposed one, the other names I mentioned were not proposals, I was asking something (for example asking if the comparision of Prime Minister of Spain with President of the Spanish Government using Google Trend is a valid comparision which you said yes). How asking if comparing two or more terms with Google Trends equals proposing such names for change in your mind, beats me.

So to be clear. I have only made one proposal. And in the future I will propose to use the most common name in English as of COMMONNAME and NCGAL. Greetings. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Your words: the Spanish head of government is not a prime minister. Wikipedia's definition of prime minister: A prime minister is the head of the cabinet and the leader of the ministers in the executive branch of government, often in a parliamentary or semi-presidential system.

There's little point in keeping the discussion ongoing beyond this point. You have a clearly flawed misconception of what a prime minister is and what a president is in English language usage (there is even a specific sentence in the article pointing that even in the cases where heads of government are dubbed as "presidents" in their mother language, they are really prime ministers. This is said literally, man).

Really, if you want to have this moved so badly, propose a RM. It will be headed for certain defeat with these arguments, but at this point you probably need to get trounced through such a failure in order to get the point on how word usage in English does not correlate to that in Spanish. Cheers. Impru20^talk 21:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I will in its due time, let see what Google Trends shows in a few months, thanks for the tool. I just hope you already have clear the difference between question and propposal which doesn't seem to be the case as of right now :D --Dereck Camacho (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Hint: it'll show exactly the same than right now, as it has been doing for... years?

You have made four proposals. Otherwise, it was pointless for you to show results for different terms, since you must use the term that you want to become the new title. That, or you have indeed wasted my time by dragging me into a barrage of useless text-walling. Your call. :D

Cheers. Impru20^talk 06:31, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Well you do tend to answer a lot, even after you say goodbye and/or say your time is been wasting. Maybe you have a problem not having the last word. In any case how you confuse asking question with making proposals certainly is baffling. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what happens when you make direct interpellations: that you usually get an answer. Also, so for you to know: when making questions, use a closing question mark. You did not use it for several of your proposals, so don't pretend to imply that it's anyone else's fault but yours. Cheers. ;) Impru20^talk 14:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I did use a closing question mark on each and every one of my questions. And I'm not questioning that you answer when directly interpelled, just finding curious that for someone who complains about waisting time and says good bye always come back to answer even when it could ignore the issue perfectly fine, specially if the issue seems to be in his own word so time waisting. Unless of course such person has a problem letting things go and not having the last word.

In any case, just for clarification, I only made one proposal. What what seems to confuse you gravely was my probing of your only argument (or lack thereoff) that the reason why the article is named "Prime Minister of Spain" is because is the most used term on English according to Google Trends that you yourself provided. When I check it turns out twice that it wasn't true, so I check your argument (or lack thereoff) in both cases. First, checking which term was more common whether Spanish President or Spanish Prime Minister and turn out that Spanish President was more common according to Google Trends. Thus, you said that such search was invalid because denomyn plus office can't be use. Then I check Prime Minister of Spain and President of the Spanish Government and oh surprise, as of today the second is more common.

Obviously what should had happen there is that you should said: Ok, if President of the Spanish Government is more common then yes, is the one that should be use (as per your own argument, otherwise would be a contradiction). Of course, that is not what happened. Probably because you didn't expected that result finding yourself between a rock and a hard place: how can you justify a particular name if the argument you use for that justification no longer apply?

So when I asked if that search was a valid one, instead of responding, you started attacking me with a very argumentative group of ad hominems, which I ignored for obvious reasons. So yes, basically and again, according to your own words the most common term in English should be the one used. That things didn't went the way you wanted because you didn't expected that to have changed and that upseted you was another matter. You shouldn't take it on me that your own argument does not support your point. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 16:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

>2kB of text. Wow. So much for an user that just complained about someone else "answering a lot". Sorry, too long, didn't read. Fill a proper RM and I'll be glad to reply with proper arguments to the actual proposal that is made. I'll not be addressing walls of text that attempt to re-interpret my own arguments in a malicious way, nor be convinced than what was said was not said or vice versa. Cheers and bye. Impru20^talk 17:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

At no point I complained about you answering a lot, I just poited out your contradiction on complaining and doing it. It is interesting how you truly seem to have your own conversations in your own head that do not correspond with reality. No wonder that you don't read what you're discussing. It does shows. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 18:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Welp. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now seriously, if you are not going to open your RM now, I don't know why you keep insisting on replying. Doing so only to keep attacking me is unlikely to attract any support to your stance, tbh. Impru20^talk 21:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Wow, the person that said goodbye answer again. No surprise there. I hasn't made any attack agains you. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Emergency Powers

The article wrongly states that the constitution does not grant the government emergency powers in the light of the Franco dictatorship, but Art 116 constitution allows 3 different levels of a state of emergency. The first level (state of alarm) can be declared for up to 15 days by the government. The higher levels or a longer duration requires approval by the lower house of parliament. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Spanish_Constitution_of_1978_(unannotated)/Part_V The state of alarm was used for several months during the Covid pandemic, being the basis for most of the restrictions imposed in spring 2020 and Autumn - Spring 2020/2021. Not sure how to proceed, there is no source for the current statement, maybe it's partially valid as to the extend of the emergency powers and that they are subject to parliamentary and judicial control, but without a source in that direction it should probably be deleted and replaced by outlining Art 116. Manwe Sulimo1 (talk) 11:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)