Talk:9 November in German history

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 9, 2005, November 9, 2006, and November 9, 2007.

occasionally used by historians and journalists since shortly after World War 2

I don't like these weasel words either, but it seems to be impossible to find out when and by whom the term was used for the first time in relation to German history...does anybody know? -- Ferkelparade π 14:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In any event, 'Kristallnacht' should be put in quotes or be replaced by Reichspogromnacht as it is nazi terminology. 87.234.85.204 08:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, Kristallnacht is the term generally used in English (Yours isn't even mentioned in the leasd of the that article.) Rmhermen 14:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact I prefer the term Kristallnacht myself. IIRC the proper nazi term was Reichskristallnacht. Reichsprogromnacht was the more ambiguous politically correct term that was invented later on to weed out the propaganda carried in the original term's meaning.

This kind of language revisionism is, from a linguistic point of view, absurd at best (if it wasn't for the revisionism, most people these days who had learned the term Kristallnacht from history books wouldn't make any positive connections with the phrase at all, even though the original components "crystal" and "night" are neutral), but so is the game of political correctness. — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First hint?

"For many observers, it is the first hint of Germany's radical antisemitic policies."

Who is meant by "observers"? For those people with a clear interest in German politics at that time, it must have been a clear sign instead of a first hint (many of these hints came earlier). It might have been a first hint for people generally not specially interested in German politics, but these should not be called observers in my opinion. --Xeeron 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Current widespread use?

I have to say, that this is the first time I've ever heard the term "Schicksalstag" at all, and I've been living in Germany all my life. Press coverage today (09.11.) is about Nov 9th 1989 almost exclusively; the only other listed event you learn about in school is the "Reichskristallnacht". (I know about the others, but I didn't know they also happened on Nov 9th.) Definitely not in "widespread use".--Mirage GSM 14:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: I just noticed the german version of this article is titled "9.November (Deutschland)". I suggest doing the same here and leaving "Schicksalstag" as a redirect. --Mirage GSM 14:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the proposed move, and I do not think we should follow the German Wikipedia's example in this case - I find de:Benutzer:790's argument on the de talkpage rather problematic. It is an encycopedia's job to describe facts, not to influence or make them - in this case, it is our job to describe that the term is widely used in German newspapers and to describe what it means, and moving it to another title because you don't like the term (as 790 did over on de) is in itself rather POV-ey. I am also rather surprised that you've never heard the term, given its inflationary use in German feuilletons. Just today, I found extensive coverage in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (even with a photo gallery), Focus and Die Zeit. -- Ferkelparade π 15:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Having never heard it before either, it definitely has an abstract sound to it. Newspapers and pundits may use it, maybe not even widely spread, but the day as a whole is not recognized as such by the public. This is in stark contrast to other German expressions commonly used in English. 80.138.227.71 17:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, cannot log on currently, forgot my password, so anonymous IP only, but I am from western Germany and am familiar with the term "Schicksalstag der Deutschen", I think it is a question of general level of education, I myself heard this term first in History class, but I think the less interested in History won't use the term at all (Generally, I suppose that if you told someone on the streets that all these events happened on November 9th, he would laugh at you at first disbelievingly). But if you're interested in History, the stark coincidence of these events has a rather "unreal" feeling to it. No one in his right mind would have planned specifically to open the Berlin Wall on the same day that Liebknecht proclamed the first "Socialist Republic"....or the "Kristallnacht"...or the "Bierhallenputsch"...So the term is really used, but I'd say not "Widespread", as it is more an "historian's term"--Contributions/155.56.68.217 (talk) 11:15, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2007

It seems a sixth event was added, as of now the sixth event reads:

2007: The adjudication of the Richtlinie über die Vorratsdatenspeicherung by the Bundestag marks the end of an era of over 50 years of informational self-determination in germany.

Is this a major event? The link provided is redlinked (and might stay that way being a German term, but not being or knowing German, I am unaware if this is something that would have an English bluelink) and don't know how important the event is, especially in regards to the other 5.

I suggest that if this will stay at the very least to change the "5" at the top to "6". (I suspect it will not stay, though, for one, the event was way to recent as of its adding in Wikipedia, unless it is obviously a major event, such as Kaiser Wilhelm's abdication or the fall of the Berlin Wall, recent history of a few hours old probalby isn't worthy enough (only history can judge history), and secondly I distinctly remember last year at this time an event was added under 2006, which obviously didn't last either. Although, it is interesting that "slow news days" never seem to happen in Germany on November 9, as even minor events (such as 2006 and possibly 2007) are worthy enough to be possibly Schicksalstagged.) --Canuckguy 01:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"First hint"?

Of the events of 1938, this article says:

For many observers, it is the first hint of Nazi Germany's radical antisemitic policies.

How can that be? Early in 1933, Jewish professors were fired from German universities. It may be that people in other countries who didn't pay much attention to events in Germany didn't realize the magnitude of the problem until then, but if that's what is meant, this should probably get rephrased. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think one difference is that until then, there had not been such open and widespread anti-Jewish violence, arson and looting. So "first hint" sounds indeed wrong, but it certainly marked an escalation. And a considerable increase of the visible "magnitude of the problem". Yaan (talk) 09:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

rename?

I actually have heard this day being referred to as "Schicksalstag", but only as a qualifier to its most common name, which is simply "Neunter November". It's definitely not like "Tag der Deutschen Einheit", where everybody would know which day is meant - Schicksalstag is essentially just some random term that is not linked to anything particular. If you ask 100 Germans when the wall fell, most would know it was Nov. 9th, 1989. If you ask them when "Schicksalstag" is, most would tell you they never heard about "Schicksalstag" or that it has any fixed date.

Apart from that, Austria, Switzerland or Liechtenstein might have their own fatefuldays, too ;) .

Yaan (talk) 09:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

connenction of dates

it should be mentioned that the Beer Hall Putsch and the Kristallnacht were not randomly on nov.9 - but the Nazi choose that date in reference to the fall of the monarchy in 1918

while the other two dates (death of Blum, and Fall of the Wall) are just coincidentally on that date 78.42.252.102 (talk) 07:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2007

2007 - Bundestag enacts the Vorratsdatenspeicherung, later taken down by the Bundesverfassungsgericht. It enforced telecommunication services to save telecommunication data on everyone. A toned down version of the law was re-enacted in October 2015 which again is argued by its opponents to violate the German constitution. Just for the future, could become relevant but is not yet, so I write it here instead of into the article. --Con^structor 16:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1938 "In what is today known as Kristallnacht (or The Night of Broken Glass)"

This must be rewritten!

"Kristallnacht" is clearly the Nazi euphemism, "crystal night".

Your translation "Night of Broken Glass" is a descriptive translation, not a literal one. The literal translation is just "crystal night".

"Chrystal" is supposed to invoke a feeling of beauty, while here it stands for the broken glass of the synagogues. Most definitely no acceptable term!

If you want to keep "what is known today" then you must use "Pogromnacht" pogrom night - that's the correct term used today! Again, "Kristallnacht" was the Nazi's own term!!!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hansjmaurer (talk • contribs) 18:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Hansjmaurer: Secondary to "Kristallnacht", "Night of Broken Glass" is the accepted term used in most English-language texts to describe the event, as far as I know. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 23:09, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

several important events in German history

Albert Einstein, winning a nobel prize, was certainly a big event for himself and for science, but not for German history. Neither the reason for winning the prize nor the winning of the prize itself had any impact on German history for the better or worse. I do not intend to diminish the work of Albert Einstein at all. The same goes for the fact that some prominent/famous son moved back to Germany (Wilhelm, German Crown Prince) and that his father was angry about it. I do intend to diminish the work of that son and father, though.

Certain events occuring on a 9th of November had severe impact on German history for the better or worse. The 9th of November 1918 and 1989 certainly fulfill this criteria, the rest is debateable. But the Albert Einstein and Wilhem's son dates are too insignificant to German history to be listed. -178.1.118.222 (talk) 07:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"November 9, 1989" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect November 9, 1989 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17 § November 9, 1989 until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 08:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]