Talk:Dye-sublimation printing

Overcoat

The ribbon shown in the photos doesn't seem to have an overcoat section. Wouldn't it be better to replace it for the picture of a ribbon that has overcoat, since it is said on the article that dye sublimation printers usually have overcoats?

how easy is it to use

• In my experience (with a mid-90's model Fargo dye-sub printer) the main challenge is keeping it free of dust as the article mentions. Also, the cellophane dye ribbons are very delicate and fragile, and were prone to getting wrinkles or creases in them which then ruined the print. (Corby 03:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Inkjet description

Some of the details on the function of the inkjet printer are at odds with the Dots per inch article's explanation about how printing works. Specifically, do inkjet printers vary the color by changing the number of dots or the size of the dots, or do different models use different techniques? --W0lfie 18:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I changed the article slightly to reflect the information in the Dots per inch article as well as linking to it. --KittensOnToast 11:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The statement that inkjet inks are opaque strikes me as wrong. A simple inspection of an inkjet printout with a microscope reveals that the inks (other than black) are indeed transparent. Furthermore, it would be impossible using opaque CMYK inks to produce anything even remotely approaching, for instance, a true red (which is 100%Y and 100%M); the best one could do was non-overlapping 50%Y and 50%M which would yield some sort of pink. It is however true that the colour depth is limited: a CMYK inkjet only has 8 colours that it can (usefully) print on any pixel: white, cyan, magenta, yellow, red, green, blue, and black. Printers with "photo" inks (which are usually partial-strength forms of the same pigments) have a little more colour depth, but nothing approaching the 2^24 colours that can be printed on a pixel by dye sublimation. The inkjets try to make up for the poor colour depth by using very fine resolution, which allows dithering. --216.58.96.136 14:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I am going to rewrite most of the part comparing inkjets, as it is FULL of misinformation. There are two kinds of inkjet inks: pigment and dye. Most black inks are pigment, and most color inks are dye (though all colors and black exist in both dye and pigment, for various applications. Dyes are translucent, while pigments are opaque. It is patent nonsense that an inkjet cannot overlap dots -- they do this routinely. Dye inks have the best color gamut (better than dye-sub -- the claim that dye-sub has a better gamut is nonsense), but modern pigment inks come very close. The advantage of pigments is primarily their superior lightfastness. tooki (talk) 11:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge

should be merged with Dye sublimation

Merge template added --Eddie 13:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Inadequate description

The explanation of dye sublimation printing ignores the fact that 'sublimation' has wider uses than in computer printers and is perfectly possible with ordinary inkjet technology. It is an important process in wide-format piezo printing of (polyester) banners and textile graphics and is also used to produce small runs of fashion and interior furnishing fabrics.

The kind of Sublimation you describe is slightly different to the Dye-Sublimation used by those who want to print photo quality pictures. I wouldn't have any problems with it being part of this article but sadly I only know about the Sublimation technology used in photos printers so can't add it myself. :) KittensOnToast 16:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, after a bit of research I added a section on Dye-sub fabric printing. KittensOnToast 13:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I got lost on this article. Just after the decription of the security risks, the article jumps right to a decription of dye sub on ink jets and I got lost.

Printers used for sublimation printing are those with Piezo electric print heads made by Epson. It works by means of a tiny crystal in the head that pulsates with a small electrical charge forcing droplets of ink onto the paper with virtually no heat being generated. This print head is fitted in all Epson desktop printers and many large format printers and is the only print head that will work for sublimation printing(Photo USA Corp.)

The thermal heads are found in 'bubble jet' printers like HP, Canon and Lexmark work by heating up the ink which when it expands forces a droplet of ink onto the paper. The problem with this type of print head for sublimation is that the heat affects the inks as they are forced through the head and the ink will accumulate inside eventually clogging the print head.

Then we just right back to decription of problems with Dye-sub using ribbons again.(JAH)

Definitions Would be Helpful

There are more than a few terms used (bronzing and metamerism, to name two) that would benefit from definitional links. Some of the folks reading this will not be completely conversant in priting jargon.

Merge complete

I have merged dye sublimation into this page. Please review the new content for any editing, as I am not familiar enough with this article to do so. --HarmonicFeather 05:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've done a bit more research on the other side of dye-sub printing, (dye-sub transfer on to fabrics), so this should help me in cleaning this article up to a more proffesional standard. Might take a while though :) KittensOnToast 15:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Speed

I don't see anything about the speed of this type of printer. Maybe someone could find some info and include it? --Ortzinator 19:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. KittensOnToast 12:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Alps Dye-Sub printers

The article states that "Each colored panel is the size of the media that is being printed on," This is not true for all Dye-Sub printers. Alps printers use a catridge resembling a cassette tape for each color. The printer would pick up a cartridge color and sweep back and forth over the page like a regular inkjet, except the whole process worked one color at a time. Information about the printer can be found at this link: Alps 1300 Printer

Interesting point but Alps have been out of business for some time and I haven't seen a dyesub printer that uses that method anymore, (and I've seen quite a few). KittensOnToast 12:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The kodak ML-500 uses a similar system. Prints all colours at once using multiple heads and can print the whole roll without stopping - all 500 feet of it. 82.24.156.27 (talk) 00:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Many of these photo or snapshot printers (both personal and in store kiosks) on the market are not actually dye sublimation, but rather thermal dye transfer systems. That is, the dye is not sublimed (i.e., goes from solid to gas) in the process. This poses a problem for how to revise this article. The thermal dye transfer article is oriented more towards label printers. I'll try to think about this as I gather references. PhotoSci (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Digital Photo ID Printing

It might be worthwhile to include a section about Photo ID printing. Most drivers licenses in the United States are now produced on-the-spot with a digital camera, and a dye sublimation card printer. This printer uses the usual plastic 4-panel dye roll, can flip the card over to print the back side.

After printing the card is usually given a plastic overlay with a UV-fluorescent or holographic logo. The topcoat protects the dye layer from damage, and the overprinted logo makes it obvious if people are trying to modify the card, such as to change the date of birth to buy alcohol when underage.

DMahalko 03:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Dye Wastage

I don't know why dye wastage on the ribbon has become a major part of this article. With dye-sublimation printers the media packs you buy are rated for an exact number of prints, which you always get, giving you a fixed print cost, therefore making wastage irrelevant. This is not the case with Inkjet printers were you are buying your ink on a volume basis were wastage becomes an important factor.

Also the article talks about the ribbon allowing people to see what has previously been printed. This is true but dye-sub printers just aren't used for printing text or documents, only photos. If someone is printing confidential photos then the ribbon can easily be destroyed by fire if necessary or even pulled through a shredder.

I think I will edit the main article to reflect this.

KittensOnToast 12:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo Reception Layer

Can you provide any information on what the top receiving layer of the dye sub paper is made of? I've tried printing on PVC sheets with a desktop dye sub photo printer and the dyes did not sublimate properly (only about 20% saturation) so there must be some sort of special receiving material used for the top layer. Do you know what it is, I can't find this info ANYWHERE!

What I'm trying to do is print dye sub "slides" on a clear or translucent material (I understand that the clear material would have to have a removable white backing in order for the printer to "see" it.) --Dyesubslides (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Tektronix/Xerox "Phaser" printers missing from this article

The article presently says that all dye-sub printers use ink-covered ribbons for printing, but this simply isn't true. The former Tektronix (now Xerox) Phaser series of printers are dye-sub printers (at least Xerox uses that term), but they use solid ink chunks instead of ribbons, eliminating the problem of wasted ink due to non-image areas. But they are dye-sublimation printers as well: the ink is heated directly from solid to vapor form, even though the ink is in a different form. This ought to be worked into the article. (Currently the Phaser printing technology is covered in the Thermal transfer printer article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.73.56 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

For anyone reading this 13 years later: the commenter above was confused.

For a while, Tektronix and then Xerox used the Phaser name for all their color printers, regardless of technology. The Phaser line, over the years, included thermal transfer/dye sub printers, laser printers, and solid ink inkjet printers. The latter were later sold under the ColorQube name. Thus, the commenter's claim that the solid-ink printers are also dye-sub is categorically incorrect. — tooki (talk) 09:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Topic Split Suggestion

As two very different types of dye sublimation printing processes are being discussed in this one article, it reads as confusing and conflicting, and I would strongly suggest that they are split into two distinct articles. How these should be titled to be clear and avoid confusion I am not sure, but would suggest that maybe dropping the "printer" part of the title would be good, as surely we are discussing the overall process and not just one piece of equipment involved. I had thought that maybe the dye-sub photo printers topic could be entitled "dye sublimation (photographic)" but still think this would cause confusion, due to the large amount of dye sublimation used for printing photos onto mugs and other custom items. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pisquee (talk • contribs) 22:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

reference syntax help please

I've just added a reference to Chemical technology in Printing and Imaging systems. It has a chapter pp73-85 called "Dye diffusion thermal transfer (D2T2) printing" by R A Hann, which I'd like to inset into the reference but I'm not sure of the syntax of how to do that. The ISBN no is 0-85186-655-7. Any help appreciated.

Thanks Gravuritas (talk) 00:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Dye diffusion, not sublimation (contradiction)

'Chemical Technology in Printing & Imaging Systems' Ed Drake, section 'Dye Diffusion Thermal Transfer (D2T2) Printing' by R A Hann p73 says: "Early workers believed that it [the basic mechanism by which this process takes place] was related to the sublimation dyeing of textiles, but since then ICI and others have recognized that the process is truly one of diffusion and does not involve sublimation for any significant part of the process." There are a couple of journal references quoted, which I can add if need be. Hope this settles the contradiction. Gravuritas (talk) 22:01, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, just re-read the sentence marked as a contradiction. The apparent contradiction is simply that the dyes were found to move by diffusion, not by sublimation, and that of itself this does not specify whether they enter the liquid phase or not. I'll change the sentence to: "The whole printing cycle is extremely clean as there are no liquid inks to clean up." as this will be indisputable.

Gravuritas (talk) 22:07, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Dye-sub vs dye-diffusion

Regarding the following statement "The sublimation name was first applied because the dye was considered to make the transition between the solid and gas states without going through a liquid stage. This understanding of the process was later shown to be incorrect." Could the author of this edit (or anyone else) cite some references to show sublimation is NOT taking place in these printers? I am currently completing an understudy, which includes a module on various print technologies, and every manufacturer of "dye-sub" card-printers I have researched claims the ink IS in fact being sublimated during the printing process - but I can't seem to find anything to refute or confirm this...

67kid (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Book reference is as cited by me in the section above. That in its turn refers to RA Hann and NC Beck, J Imaging Tech., 1990, 16, 238-241 and IM Hodge & DS Ross " Mass diffusion in resistive head thermal printing" Proc 7th Int Congr on Adv in NIP Technologies, Portland, Oregon, USA, Oct 1991 226-231

Gravuritas (talk) 21:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

major edit October 2015

@Techstar Sorry mate, but you don't know what you're talking about. The ref you're quoting seems big on printing on textiles and entirely ignorant of the 'dye diffusion' ribbons, which the Hann source you've deleted showed a long time ago was not dye sublimation, though it continued to be called that. 'Cellophane' ribbons? Maybe 30 years ago, not since. I'm sure the article does need improvement, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I suggest you make smaller changes and that you read and understand the current article before making such wholesale changes. Gravuritas (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)\\

@Gravuritas You are preserving references to commercial content and references to an article by Sawgrass that is not even present anymore. Commercial: The Sublimation Process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhJj5mVJ1yU Commercial: Digital Sublimation Printing by Vapor Apparel http://www.vaporapparel.com/sublimation.html

And what is this? It is supported by a Powerpoint presentation -- haha. The printer speed is low. Any creases in the apparel during printing leave blank spots behind

Let's agree to get all this nonsense out of here. Techstar (talk) 02:53, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes- agree to all that you say above. The bit I particularly want left in is the explanation that the ribbon-based 'dye-sub' printers do not function via sublimation. I also think that some of the stuff around YMCKO etc is potentially of interest. I don't wish to preserve what you refer to as nonsense, or the commercial stuff. Could you possibly go ahead with your desired changes but in more manageable chunks, so we can debate if needed? And I suspect that the source you quote may know his stuff about textile printing, but is pretty wobbly on the ribbons, so please be careful about using that source on ribbons.

Gravuritas (talk) 06:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

This article should be split between dye-sublimation photo printers and dye-sublimation piezo printers. There is a lot of material that is ambiguous as to the type of printer referenced. In some cases the material is true for one type of printer but false for the other. Can we agree to initiate a split?

Techstar (talk) 04:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

You might be right in the end, but could we start this by clarifying and structuring this article and see if it works out as a unified article first? I suggest after the leader para, which probably should be written last, the first chunk should be about genuine dye diffusion printing i.e the textile stuff, and then it is much easier to follow on to the misleadingly-nameddye diffusion printing which is ribbon- based.. I know about the latter but not the former- if you have a bash at the textile stuff andsort of temporarily shovel the rest downwads, I can sort out the ribbon stuff, taking your previous points about commercials on board. Would this be OK and let's see what emerges?. For clarity, I am not trying to keep you off any bit of the article- you are of course free to edit waht you want.

Gravuritas (talk) 16:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Introduction

I know next to nothing about this subject and I still don't after trying to read this.

2nd para starts "These are not to be confused with dye sublimation." What are "These?" As the head pronoun of the second para, "These" would either have to refer to the subject of the first, or to the nearest prior ephithet. Either way it makes no sense to me and I don't understand the context, limitations and diversity of the subject of this page even though I probably own some of this technology. Please could someone who does understand the subject offer an introduction that works to draw us in? Many thanks Atconsul (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

You clipped the quote which is "These are not to be confused with dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting printers" - the point is that 'dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting printers' are not the same thing as 'dye sublimation' printers. I threw some single quotes around the full phrase to reduce future confusion. - MrOllie (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks. I do appreciate your responding to my call for clarification, and your improvement takes things forward. You seem to be saying: "'Dye sublimation printers' use a technique that does not involve sublimation. Other printers called 'dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting printers' are not dye sublimation printers but do involve sublimation."

If my analysis of the text is correct I feel justified in remaining confused, and I would still encourage you to ditch the pronoun para headword, which still renders a reading of this Talk page essential.

I'm afraid I'm still missing what the point really is here. If it's just me I'll get back in my box now, just say so. But the Theory section continues my uncertainty. Here (I think) we pick up the mainstream (now aka dye sub) case again and we seem to be back with to the idea that true sublimation is involved. We discuss how it is 'commonly used for decorating apparel, signs and banners, as well as novelty items ... with sublimation-friendly surfaces.' I suppose my understanding is hampered because after reading this I now imagine that the sort of low-cost printers that are sold on well-known e-markets to print such novelty stock belong to the 'dye sublimation heat transfer imprinting printers' classification rather than the main category, yet we are discussing them as if they are "true?" dye diffusion products. I feel like I'm detecting a difference in authorship of the two headings

Perhaps it's all too intangible. What real products are on offer? What use cases do they deliver solutions to? Which category do they belong to? Does it matter to the user at all? Many thanks. Atconsul (talk) 17:32, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

The core of the problem is that the "mainstream" use today is NOT what the word originally meant. In the late 80s, early 90s, before color laser printers were any good, ribbon-based dye sub printers were a mainstay of graphic design offices, as the cheapest way to print decent color prints for prepress proofing. (Tektronix and others made those up to tabloid/A3+ size.) The only competing technology was the IRIS continuous inkjet, which was much more expensive. Once laser printers and on-demand inkjet became good enough for prepress proofing, dye-sub fell into the much smaller niche of dedicated photo printing, as the sole continuous-tone printing technology other than actual photo lab prints. So in the 80s and 90s, if you saw the term "dye sub", it meant precisely one thing: ribbon to paper.

Then the fabric (and knickknack) printing industry came along and started using the term to mean something entirely different. This is certainly the dominant use of the term today, but it's not the original use, and the problem remains that there's no good alternative word for the original, which hasn't even died off.

No term seems clear, since every combination of "thermal transfer", "direct transfer", etc. still somehow overlaps with one of the fabric/knickknack printing processes. Even if we try to give the original process a retronym, there seems to be no terminology that could be used to cleanly differentiate the two groups of processes! — tooki (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I've made an attempt to untangle the hot mess that this article had become, with the confusion between two radically different, largely unrelated groups of technologies. (It's super frustrating that the inkjet printer manufacturers co-opted the existing term "dye sublimation printer" to mean "an inkjet printer loaded with special ink to print dye-sub transfer sheets for subsequent transfer to fabric", when the term was already long established to mean the printers that use thermal printheads to dye-sub directly from ribbon onto paper.) — tooki (talk) 15:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2023

Add a subsection in the "Applications" section: Title of subsection: Versatile Applications in Textile, Ceramic, and Promotional Item Printing Text: Apart from its extensive application in business and industry, sublimation printing has become increasingly popular in the textile and apparel industries. Its capability to generate intricate designs with a vibrant color scheme that are integrated into the fabric composition results in prints that are resilient to fading. Sportswear, promotional clothes, and fashion apparel are examples of products where quality and durability are crucial, and this approach is perfect for them. Sublimation printing is also used to create custom graphics on ceramics and mugs, as well as to print on vinyl and T-shirts. Its high-quality prints and flexibility allow it to produce full-color, long-lasting designs that are integrated into the material rather than just being applied on its surface. Cyganprzemyslaw (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - we cannot use someone's self published blog as a source, nor can we add this sort of non-neutral text. Please see WP:RS for information on Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines. And WP:NPOV for information on tone. - MrOllie (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

References