Talk:The Big Sleep

Plot analysis

I wrote a large, somewhat too large plot analysis of the Big Sleep. Maybe it should be moved to Wikibooks... I fixed all links on other pages to distinguish between the two films and the book. --Alexs letterbox 03:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who killed Owen Taylor?

Owen Taylor probably committed suicide. Chandler was not out of town when cabled by the Studio. According to Robert Mitchum, in a witness account from the June 1986 Special Anniversary Issue of LA Style, " ..., I met Chandler once. There was a bookstore. I think a man named Allen Wilson ran it. On Wilcox, I believe. They had a backroom crowd there. He was sort of apart from the rest. A lot of the writers used to get their mail there. If anybody got a check, they bought a bottle of sparkling burgundy or something. Chandler was a little distant. I thought he was a bit affected. I didn't know at the time that he was sort of a stranger in this country, that he basically regarded himself as an Englishman. The fact that he wore gloves I thought was an affectation. I didn't know that he had problems, chapped hands or whatever. He was in there one time, and got this message from Warner Bros. They didn't know who killed Owen whatever-his-name-was, the chauffeur in The Big Sleep. So one of the guys said, 'Just tell them you don't know.' And apparently that's what he did." So, Chandler didn't care who killed Owen. Why should we?Aaprlore (talk) 23:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Owen Taylor was killed by Joe Brody. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.212.107.235 (talk • contribs)

No-one knows who killed Taylor, though Brody would be a good suspect. Why not Canino? Why not what's-his-name the pornographer? Why not Carmen Sternwood? And it was the Lido Pier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dino (talk • contribs)

I may have to re-read it, but if I recall correctly the coroner was wrong; Taylor had been bludgeoned but not killed, and committed suicide when he realized that the incriminating photos had been stolen - hence the confusion on what happened to him. Blackmyron 21:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. --MonkBirdDuke 05:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Who cares? All that matters is that he's dead. --Alexs letterbox 06:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The following statement is made in the intro:

During the making of the 1946 film, Chandler was asked to help when no one involved with the film could figure out who killed one of the characters, only to reply that he didn't know either.

The reference is to Owen Taylor and the point is that Chandler left it open as to if he was murdered or committed suicide. The problem is that this statement implies the plot is incomprehensible. Though this is often said it is bogus and should be removed.--Jack Upland 05:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The specific incident was regarding the chauffeur. Bogart asked Hawks what the significance was of the Packard in the bay and the dead chauffeur therein. Hawks asked Faulkner, who had worked on the script, and he did not know either. Faulkner called Chandler at home, and Chandler could no longer recall. I can find a source for this story, and that should settle the matter. ---Charles 14:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard that Chandler was out of town at the time and they couldn't reach him. We need a good source for this. -- Beardo 01:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Lauren Bacall says in her autobiography "By Myself" that Chandler told Howard Hawks that he didn't know who killed Owen Taylor. So it remains a mystery even to the author. 2600:1700:E750:4020:30F7:FA68:8C9:5E11 (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

While it is tough to argue with a rebuttal like 'Nonsense', I read through the novel again to see what I could find. What I found was this: the coroner reported that someone hit Owen on the back of the head, but denied that the blow killed him and it was pointed out that the car wasn't rolled off into the harbor - someone drove it into the harbor. Joe Brody admitted to hitting Owen on the head and taking the pictures, but denied killing him. Owen was obsessed with Carmen, and killed Geiger and took the blackmail photos to protect her. When Brody followed and ambushed him and stole the photos, it seems (at least to me) that when Owen came to and realized the photos were gone, in a fit of despair he drove into the harbor to kill himself. Before I do any editing, however, I would like to see if anyone has any feedback about this... Blackmyron 16:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like original research to me, and speculative at that. Can you find an authority that has written this before? Edwin Stearns | Talk 15:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I came to this page to find the answer to who killed Owen. I finished reading the book about a week ago and I was going over the plot in my head and this question jumped out at me. The piece of trivia at the bottom of the page says that even Chandler didnt know who the killer was. I guess the details of the story were as difficult to write as it was to follow at times . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.215.37.164 (talk) 15:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I doubt seriously that Chandler didn't know the solution to this mystery, he most certainly had plotted the book before writing it, and the story told by Mitchum and others has grown with the retelling. Hawks's explanation that he deliberately left the answer out of the film also smacks of being self serving. I believe that for reasons of economy, and to reinforce Marlowe's experience of walking into the middle of a large mystery that needs decoding, Chandler cut out months, even years of the story of the Sternwoods and Eddie Marrs. so who are our suspects? first and foremost we have Joe Brody. Joe admits he chased Owen after Owen has killed Geiger, "sapped him up" and stole the plate with Carmen's nude photo.He adamantly denies killing Taylor, and is aghast that anyone would try to pin it on him. Chandler, through Marlowe tells us Brody is just not tough or cold enough to murder a guy outright. If Marlowe is wrong it is the only time in the book he has been fooled, and Chandler has no stake in Brody fooling us or Marlowe. suspect 2 is Carol, Geiger's boy-toy. Carol is a stupid, aggressive punk. That He WOULD have killed Taylor in revenge cannot be disputed, except Carol would almost certainly have just blasted him with every bullet he had and left him in the car, rather than stage an elaborate suicide. Before we get to suspect 3, let's talk about the suicide. we are lead to believe that Taylor wakes after being knocked out, realizes he has failed to protect Carmen, and chooses to drive to the Lido Pier and kill himself by driving off of it? one would think it would be the prospect of going to prison for murdering Geiger, or that his love was a perverted drug abuser rather than the loss of the photo.after all, the photo is still out there. But Taylor has been to prison before, and it holds no exaggerated terror for him. As for the revelation that Carmen is a degenerate loon, isn't it safe to assume that Taylor has already figured this out? In fact, Taylor has had a long relationship with Carmen, even taking her to another state and attempting to marry her. why,after such behavior is he still employed by the Sternwoods at all? And why is Joe Brody staking out Geiger's house? Brody first. Brody tells Marlowe that he was attempting to discover if Geiger had any tough associates so he could muscle into the racket as a "partner". But Brody is Agnes's boyfriend ! Agnes knows that Geiger has a partner already, one with enough pull to let Geiger operate out in the open.Agnes also knows exactly who Canino is. when Marlow mentions Canino her face goes white with fear.No, Joe was certainly going to try to scare some cash out of Geiger,but he and Agnes were definitely not going to hang around after the attempt.Indeed, after Geiger is dead they tell Marlowe of their plans to get away, and this is before they knew of Taylor's death or Carmen's willingness to finger Joe for the murder. Owen Taylor was murdered by Canino. After Taylor and Carmen came back to california, Eddie Marrs ordered Vivian Sternwood to retain Owen.As we know from the ending of the book, Marrs had a big investment in Carmen and the Sternwoods. He bribed Taylor to stay on and report on Carmen's life and habits so he could keep an eye on that investment. Just as he kept a close watch on his investment with Geiger.This explains also how Canino recognized Marlowe at Huck's Garage. The night Carmen left for Geiger's Taylor called Marrs or Canino to report it. Marrs who was aware of Geiger's plan to continue to ensnare Carmen in Blackmail, ordered him to follow and put a halt to it. Canino was dispatched to the house as well. After Taylor murders Geiger without permission, AND loses the photo to Brody,Canino catches up to Taylor in the Packard, drives the car with the unconcious Taylor to the pier and stages the suicide, to punish Taylor for his huge mistakes, to keep him from talking to the police if charged with murder,and to make everybody-including the readers shrug their shoulders when they ask "who killed Owen Taylor". Chandler unwittingly gave us a great mystery to solve here, much the same way David Foster Wallace intentionally asked us to imagine a continuing story arc in "Infinite Jest" Mohammed wong (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

brilliant. it's the only way it makes sense. thanks 2601:14B:4100:3CE0:5928:173:7188:17D6 (talk) 02:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Trivia Section

I think the entire trivia section should be deleted. In fact, I am deleting it. Here it is:

• One of the murders is left unexplained. Owen Taylor is found murdered in a car that has been pushed into the bay. Chandler was shocked to find later that he didn't know who the killer was.[2]
• Songs named after The Big Sleep exist by the New Wave rock band Simple Minds (on their popular album New Gold Dream), the third wave ska band Streetlight Manifesto, the Indiana band Murder by Death (on their third album entitled In Bocca al Lupo), the band Pull Tiger Tail (as a b-side on the 7" single Let's Lightning), the Alternative rock band The Only Ones and (very probably) others.
• The Coen brothers' film The Big Lebowski is loosely based on The Big Sleep.[3]
• The plot of Warren Ellis and JH Williams' graphic novel "Made in England," the first arc of Desolation Jones, is similar to The Big Sleep.[citation needed] Jones' client is a retired Army colonel who tells Jones to find a legendary pornographic film supposedly shot by none other than Adolf Hitler.
• A Mama's Family episode, in which Thelma dreams she is a detective, is titled "The Big Nap".

Neither the movie article gain reputability by loose association with pop culture of a different era. Bluerasberry (talk) 04:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

"Trivia sections" are unencyclopedic and thus should be removed. This is not a paper placemat is a crummy diner on which trivia is printed to entertain diners while they await their lackadaisical server. Does any guideline say that articles should have a "Trivia section?" Edison (talk) 03:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I think its a mistake to say that The Big Lebowski was loosely inspired by The Big Sleep. Here is the actual relevant text from the web article cited as a reference:

"iW: How much did "The Big Sleep" influence "The Big Lebowski"?

Joel Coen: We wanted to do a Chandler kind of story - how it moves episodically, and deals with the characters trying to unravel a mystery. As well as having a hopelessly complex plot that's ultimately unimportant."

Except for the similarities of the names, there is very little about The Big Sleep that corresponds to The Big Lebowski. In fact I don't even think "Bay City" is mentioned in The Big Sleep. Its more correct to say that The Dude is a reworking of Marlowe as a stoner and there are several elements from various Chandler novels (Bay City, corrupt cops, smart talking LA sleaze balls, powerful rich client with sexually voracious wife) that work there way into Lebowski but its not loosely based on any one novel. Mdebellis (talk) 12:12, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I made a minor edit to the trivia section to correct the issue described above. Mdebellis (talk) 12:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I was just reviewing the recent comments. On the topic of whether a trivia section should even be here I think it should. I think the relevance of a trivia section should be determined by how much of a pop culture icon the article represents. In the case of The Big Sleep its homaged and mocked quite a bit, probably as much as any other novel so I think a trivia section makes sense here. Mdebellis (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Name of Lauren Bacall character Vivian

Have been watching the movie on KQED in San Francisco and this part of the description is inaccurate "Sternwood mentions his other, older daughter Vivian is in a loveless marriage with a man named Rusty Regan, who has disappeared" Vivian is a divorcee and her original husband was named Rutledge - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Bacall_on_screen_and_stage2600:1700:9750:AC50:E41D:1132:3AA3:94A9 (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Please see the article for the film adaptation of this novel — The Big Sleep (1946 film) — and its Plot section. — WFinch (talk) 14:52, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Detective Fiction

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 April 2024 and 11 June 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mask of the Universe (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Chapstick27 (talk) 16:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Edited Background Section and Added Themes section

I included background regarding the setting and historical context of the novel. Also included some themes of masculinity and family when I read analyses of the novel. This is my first time editing a Wikipedia article, so hopefully these edits are justified and are informative! Mask of the Universe (talk) 00:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)