Talk:Kiswahili versus Swahili

Tried to smooth the Swahili discussion by creating this stub. I'm now tired and need help with format, maybe headings, copyedit?

Also, if someone could check the Arabic grammar; I took it from another user's comments but don't know if it's correct. Quill 04:53, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Do we really need a separate article that covers two things: 1) The meaning of a Swahili word; 2) The assertion that it's "Swahili", and not "Kiswahili" for the correct English naming of the article? I think that 2) should be contained in the Swahili language article, and that 1) should be in the Swahili Wikitionary. Also, the content of this discussion needs to be more NPOV; some people think that Kiswahili is the more correct name in the English language. — Matt 05:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, a move-and-merge would be fine with me. As to neutrality, well, I disagree to this extent: being neutral does not mean that every theory has to be written as if true. Do some people think that Kiswahili is the more correct name? Sure! Are they right? Well, I've never heard any evidence of it. Both my dictionaries and all my grammar books say 'Swahili' or 'Swahili-English'; 'English-Swahili'. In East Africa, an English speaker would ask 'Do you speak Swahili?' No 'ki' about it.

You say, "being neutral does not mean that every theory has to be written as if true". I agree, however, to be NPOV, we have to present every theory without saying that any of them is true; we can't take sides on things that people dispute. — Matt 06:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have only ever heard of the language referred to as 'Kiswahili' in the States in African-American enclaves, and no one has ever given me a good reason for it. People may say "I've been told that this is correct" and be entirely serious and truthful, but WHY is it correct? What about that usage makes it the right one in English? Quill 05:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We don't need to argue as to which is correct, but we should try and present how others would argue this. I am, of course, assuming that there are people who would argue for "Kiswahili" over "Swahili" as the correct English name. This seems to be the case from the comment at Talk:Swahili language. — Matt 06:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...yes, you seem to have misunderstood me. I agree with you; when I said 'WHY is it correct....' I meant 'what argument would they make to persuade someone that that was correct'? I can't possibly discuss how (in what manner) people would argue that the use of 'kiswahili' was correct in this context; I don't have the foggiest. People come to believe all sorts of things. For example, someone told me today that all ginger cats are male. They're not. A LOT of people believe that all ginger cats are male. They're ALL wrong. They believe it because it's been repeated so often. One could not write a credible article without indicating that the popular notion that all ginger cats are male is not correct.

Without further information, all I can do is say 'some people say that 'Kiswahili' is the correct way to refer to the language'. What people? Why? If it's a theory, fine, state the theory and the wherefores--but if it's just repeated because that's the current fashion...? Quill 10:18, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ah, a rhetorical "Why", sorry; maybe it is just a widespread mistake, we should try and find out. A Google search turned up a couple of sites referring to "Swahili (more properly, Kiswahili)" [1] or "Swahili (or Kiswahili, which is the proper way to identify the language)" [2]. I'm sure I've heard that "Kiswahili" is more "proper" before, as well (even though I don't buy it); perhaps we could query User:Hippietrail to see what it was he read? — Matt 11:10, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would bet money that you have heard that "Kiswahili" is more "proper"; I know I have....I'd like to explore this some more, but I want it to be clear that I'm not setting myself up as an expert in linguistics or in Swahili; I'm neither. Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

The content of the article is self-contradictory. First it states that English names for languages differ from the name used by the native speakers of the language, then it claims that we should not say "Kiswahili" because that would be grammatically wrong in Swahili, not in English. So what if the native speakers of Swahili don't call their language "Kiswahili"?

WHAT?! No, I really think you misread the article. Native speakers of Swahili do call their language 'Kiswahili', and 'Kiswahili' is gramatically wrong in English. And yes, it does matter--what do you mean 'so what'? African languages are not inferior to Europeans ones; they should be 'handled' the same way. Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Right, I misunderstood your argument. But I neither said nor in any way implied that African languages are inferior to European languages. That is nothing but an ad hominem attack. I agree that African languages should be handled the same way that European languages are. As the article pointed out at great length, the English language does not care how the native speakers of various European languages call their language. Thus it should not care how the native speakers of African languages call their own language either.

I simply cannot figure out what you mean when you say that "Kiswahili" is grammatically wrong in English. Burschik 14:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There's no need to get defensive; I'm not attacking you. I'm saying that in my opinion political correctness, which I believe this is, denigrates.

I'm not sure I can explain any better. How about this: when I'm speaking in English, I do not say 'I speak le francais', I say "I speak French". If I were speaking in french I would say, "Je parle francais" and refer to the language as 'le francais'. Quill 22:03, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I find it difficult to see your point. Are you saying (1) "Kiswahili" is politically correct, and (2) political correctness denigrates the speakers of "Swahili"? Do you also object to the terms "Sinti" and "Roma"? Do you also object to the use of "Beijing" instead of "Peking"? And what happened to the argument that "Kiswahili" is ungrammatical in English? Regards, Burschik 10:05, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the whole thing should be cut down to one or two sentences stating, in effect, that some people call the language "Kiswahili" and why they do it. Burschik 14:09, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense, but I agree with Matt that this should probably be explored further. It's not a minute issue. Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Frankly, I do think it is a minute issue. Now if the speakers of "Swahili" were mortally offended by the fact that their language is called this or that in English, then it would be an issue. Burschik 14:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about 'mortally offended', but some do object.Quill 22:03, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Really? Why should they object? Burschik 10:05, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I think a sentence like "Swahili (or Kiswahili)" in Swahili language suffices for this; I'm unconvinced there's a need for a separate article. — Matt 14:38, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Burschik 14:55, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It sounds like most people are OK with a merger. I'm going to go ahead and do it, giving it a heading near the top of Swahili language, unless there are any objections. Lesgles 15:42, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Kiswahili or Swahili?

Swahili is an ethnic group but Kiswahili is the language spoken by the group. While it's allowed to say 'Swahili' to mean the language when writing in English, it's more acceptable if you don't use the words interchangeably 154.153.35.179 (talk) 12:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)